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Gillans micstand Profile
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Registered: 11-2003
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Re: "Backyard" recording


Thanks,but the last one you posted,covered my concerns better....we all know it's good,but there are some things we differ about,and plenty of people here,let that stand in the way of enjoying what is easily the most progressive album they've made in along time.
4/1/2006, 20:03 Link to this post Send Email to Gillans micstand
 
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Re: "Backyard" recording


quote:

Rezi wrote:

quote:

Fireball wrote:

In the end, from all this banter, I can only come up with one conclusion abot myself and that is I like faulty production sound better than perfection.



Me too!




Me tree! emoticon

---
"...though the reason now is gone,
the battle rages on"
4/1/2006, 22:22 Link to this post Send Email to Atle   Send PM to Atle Blog
 
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Re: "Backyard" recording


quote:

atle wrote:

quote:

Rezi wrote:

quote:

Fireball wrote:

In the end, from all this banter, I can only come up with one conclusion abot myself and that is I like faulty production sound better than perfection.



Me too!




Me tree! emoticon



Atle, I'm not sure I heard you right through all this distortion - is it tree or three?

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Re: "Backyard" recording


quote:

Fireball wrote:
Atle, I'm not sure I heard you right through all this distortion - is it tree or three?



You see, I try quite 'ard to keep the H out of my life emoticon / emoticon

---
"...though the reason now is gone,
the battle rages on"
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Re: "Backyard" recording


'ard rock and 'eavy met-ul emoticon

Last edited by Gillans micstand, 5/1/2006, 13:48
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Re: "Backyard" recording


Sorry for the delay ByTor,but for one,the post would be too large to fit in a detailed quoted reply,due to the oversized reply to my post. emoticon

quote:



Interesting comments, I agree with some, and I enjoy hearing, and respect, peoples thoughts on audio related matters when they are presented in an honest manner, with respect for the people reading them. I suspect there are problems with BOTH the mixing and mastering, but nothings perfect I suppose. Bad recordings happen from time to time. The latest studio album from Rush, “Vapor Trails” is another fairly recent album with poor sound IMHO.



I was being totally honest,THUS FAR.
And I do agree about "VP" could it be,that we just have a case of producers working with bands that are normally of completely outside genres,I still think Bradford needs some practice mixing rock drums..too flat for my taste,maybe it's the Pro tools transferring,and nothing can help that?


quote:


Whenever someone takes a rather complicated and subjective subject like we’ve been discussing in this thread, and starts making ridiculous one sentence blanket statements, like some you’ve made in this thread, and tries to pass them off as fact rather than opinion or theory, it makes me wonder why? You seem like a good guy, but man look at some of these comments you’ve made and ask yourself what people must be thinking when they read them.

 Here are some examples:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gillans micstand wrote:

Good sound is not a matter of opinion,period. emoticon



Sorry to seem gospel to you,but anyone with eyes,and a keen sense,can clearly tell that the "oops" smiley was put there to slap sarcasm on that ridiculously outlandish statement.
I know I did the "period" thing somewhere else,sorry to have left out the emoticon on that one though,my mistake,cause it could make the one with the emoticon look like I was joking or something there. emoticon
So don't forget to put your IMHO every time you pass judgement on something here. emoticon

quote:


Making the statement good sound is “not a matter of opinion” is truly ludicrous, tell me it’s your humble opinion and I would have politely disagreed and moved on.



Please see above emoticon

quote:


 The ENTIRE recording process ultimately comes down to peoples OPINIONS that they have formed through years of experience



And you're complaing about me?
Are you sure you don't mean the final product,and not the "ENTIRE recording process?"
Pretty out there if you ask me.
It's not opinion what something in particular was done,if it was...it simply was,how can this be debated?
No I didn't see the process,I just listen,and investigate from there,but whatever was done in the process,remains a full blown fact...if I understand you correctly,which isn't easy with a statement such as that. emoticon

quote:


The musician may pick a certain instrument because, in his opinion, it sounds best for the piece they are working on. The engineer may pick a certain microphone or EQ setting because in his opinion, based on his experience, that’s what will work best in that particular time. When the engineer mixes the album, it comes down to him listening through a pair of monitors and making mixing choices, based on his experience, and his OPINION. The mastering engineer, who has complete control over the levels and EQ (amongst other things) has to make choices, based on his experience, and opinion. Even the guy at home listening to the recording will pick playback equipment that in his opinion best meet his needs. There are many ways to skin the cat.



I'd say the same thing,but would I be opining...of course,just as you are,so don't go thinking you aren't,when writing something as opinionated as that,not that it's a discredit to you,but talk about "hypocritical." Nice bit of insight nevertheless. emoticon

quote:


Gillans micstand wrote:

The mastering job is excellent on ROTD,the problem occured during the mixing stage,period.



I won't argue with that,but I will admit to forgetting to emoticon it. emoticon
Now for your reply to it:
quote:


As I pointed out earlier you’ve NEVER HEARD the unmastered mix, simple as that. All the typing in the world wont change this fact, so this is at best your theory or opinion, which your entitled to, why go the route of wording it like anything more than that?


I'm certain that you didn't follow my lead about this subject up to this point,as I was writing that post,I was reflecting here and there,on how I hear the album THUS FAR and that brought me to this exchange,and I should've considered that I was replying to someone who may not have read any of my previous asessments about it,as I'm not quite finished evaulating the album,as I told you,I don't live at the guys house,it's 30 friggen miles away,and I'll elaborate further on what has transpired since I made the post you replied to,later in this post,keep reading.

 
quote:


One of the main responsibilities of a mastering engineer is to prepare the recording for production. He has final control over volume levels, EQ, etc. If there is a drop out (I honestly don’t hear or see a drop out, but that’s just my opinion), particularly one obvious enough that it would cause some kind of compatibility problem with play back equipment, its his job to see it gets fixed, before the CD’s are made, yet you are saying the mastering is excellent. I honestly don’t hear or see what I would call a drop out, but that’s just my opinion. I do see a very distorted wav that’s occurred during mastering. Perhaps this might be contributing to your playback problem? Let me know if you want me to post a picture of it, it’s easy to do.



PT.2 next post
(since maximum length for a post is 1000 word,there is no other way to do this)
6/1/2006, 12:39 Link to this post Send Email to Gillans micstand
 
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Re: "Backyard" recording


Glad to hear that you know this to be a fact,and that all engineers do everything the same,everytime they work on a different project,can't short cuts and other detours in the process occur,depending on who it is,and who's and what unmixed/mastered product they're working with?... emoticon
I don't need a frquency stat,and I'm not so sure you know exactly how state of the art the studio I'm visiting is.
I do however appreciate that you know plenty on the subject,it appears anyway. emoticon

As for the playback,well the guy has jerked my chain before,once with a very high end Pink Floyd recording that would blow your mind how crazy the needles were smaking the end of the guages.(full on,and I've never evaluated a better live recording than that one)
And I was there yesterday,keeping this exchange in mind,and one bass speaker wasn't patched in,or so we came to realize,which sheds major light on the "drop off" factor...walking around the room a bit,I noticed why I was hearing an uneven sound,so he checked things out with his cords,and low and behold,that was the problem...he patched in,and started the cd over again...pretty big difference,now the only problem I have,is my equipment.
(mind you,it was very very loud,in his studio)
Do you know anything at all about Audigy2 7.1 sound technology?
Because this buisness with the WAV slider is so annoying that it still has me puzzled.

It's not foriegn to me that it does this,because of all the different recordings and formats I play through it,but I expected better functioning from my upgraded sound device,when it comes to a bran new recording,that should be a quality product,and I don't critisize the equipment over it,I fully trust it's playback capibility,I just need an answer to the annoying little petty malfunction,that is caused by the product,not the equipment.
As for the mastering,and my asessment of that,you have cast enough doubt on it to render my opinion questionable,definetly emoticon
I hope that clears up the handful of !@#$ on my statement,if thats good enough for you. emoticon

quote:


Gillans micstand wrote:

You can't cause drop offs by mastering,the drop off happened during the mix,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A sloppy mastering engineer or equipment malfunction could cause a drop off, it’s not impossible.



As you can see,I wasn't done toying with it,and as I said,it was my feelings expressed THUS FAR,at the time,and I didn't expect to be put in check by you,someone who hadn't been following my posts on the subject,but was going off one exchange with me?

quote:


LOL The only thing missing is your famous “period” at the end. How can you type something like this with out first thinking about how foolish you will look when somebody asks you how you could possibly know this? I hope this is a joke, but I didn’t see any smiles on it.



Ah...I think it's safe to say,I covered that already. emoticon
I can care less how "foolish" I look when expressing what I know is opinions,nor should you,thats what a forum is for,and I have no qualms about such menial concerns.
emoticon It's a forum forChristsakes...
Not an instruction manual.

quote:


You brought up the use of Pro Tools and Q-Base, and I’ve asked you repeatedly what it is you learned by using them, that would make you say I’m “100% wrong” why don’t you tell us? I’m not trying to give you a hard time here, I’m truly curious. If I’m 100% wrong it won’t be the first time, I would at least like to get my score down to 50%.



Again,I missused the smiley,by not using[edit]it,my bad.(you asked me that more than once?)
And take things with a grain of salt why don't you...sheesh,it's not a contest either,just a forum to express ourselves,which you're doing no better than I am at...erm,well sometimes better,sometimes not,fair enough?
You don't have to answer any of this,you are under no obligation,but I felt it was my obligation to reply to your much winded breakdown of my not so large post,just out of respect. emoticon

quote:


Gillans micstand wrote:

The problem is the WAV....IF YOUR SLIDER WON'T MOVE,SOMETHING IS MISSING FROM THE MIX,SO IT'S EITHER A SOUND COMPONENT,OR SOME KIND OF SHOT CUT,FAKING THE COMPONENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I mentioned above, I can easily post a picture of wav graph showing a rather severely distorted wav, that has been caused by signal processing during mastering. The wav is completely clipped off at its peaks, and the top is missing. Perhaps this might cause the problem your having?




Once more,I have that capibility myself,and don't need you to place a graph of what I've already seen,and I see it very well.
I say there is a fakery of some sort,but you're entitled...
If you say it was caused by signal processing,at this point I'm very inclined to believe you,and thanks for your informative insight on that,and your insight in general ByTor.
It may even be safe to say,that this is the problem,and the equipment is responding this way because of it,again...thanks.

quote:


How does your player respond to some of your bootlegs? I would imagine some of those are fairly roughly mixed compared to ROTD. Do you have a lot of compatibility issues?



I may have slightly gotten into that already,but I'll reply directly to you on this...
Yes,I have them all the time,because of multi formats,and inconsistant sound quality that is everything from superior,to terrible.
So it's nothing new,but I always keep in mind that I'm not listening to a studio mastered recording,and it doesn't bother me to play around,thats what the software is for,and with Audigy2 and Q-Base,as you may know,I can do a boatload of adjusting...everything from environmental noise and EQ,to even making vocal gender switching,which the guy with the studio was even amazed at.
I magine listening to "Fools" By Deep Purple,with a female vocal,or Blackmores Night with a male vocal...absolutely wild my friend.

Thanks for your time,I appreciate it,and you can count on my honesty,just not my accuracy. emoticon
As for some others,well they might see it the other way around.(not_that_I_loose_any_sleep_over_that)

Last edited by Gillans micstand, 6/1/2006, 12:56
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Re: "Backyard" recording


Sorry I’m slow getting back to you GM, I’ve just been swamped with work. If I’d seen this work load coming I would have stayed away from this entire thread altogether. My fault. I’m leaving tomorrow and will be gone for probably 10 days, so I wanted to get back to you with this rather quick response. Thankfully, looks like we’re at the point where we understand where each other is or was coming from. I look forward to getting back to discussing the sound of ROTD at a latter date.

I wanted to summarize the comments made in regard to these two original statements GM, so you can see that my not understanding the intended meaning or validity of your original comments from above, was not simply a matter of me being to nit picky about trivial things like your use of the OOPS button or leaving off IMHO, etc. I know how easy it is to make small mistakes when your posting, I’ve made some here as you pointed out .The last thing I wanted to do is get into a long drawn out debate over the proper interpretation of “oops” etc. I think I have a fairly good track record on this forum for avoiding that type of thing.


In both cases summarized below, when we finally get down to what you were really intending to say, and compare to what you originally posted, I hope you agree it would have been impossible for me to know what you were really trying to say. Even after reading your second responses in both cases the final version is completely different, and I’m not talking about “smiles” and “opps”. Nevertheless, I thank you for taking the necessary time to clear this up for me.
 
Summary:

Statement #1
This is the original statement from GM posted December 1:
quote:

Gillans micstand wrote:
 Good sound is not a matter of opinion,period. emoticon




Then on January 3, after atle made the comment to you that “Seems this thread proves you wrong. “ you responded directly to him with this explanation.(Version #2) (notice no mention of sarcasm or “oops” that will be mentioned in version #3)

quote:

I meant that on more of a quality level,than a personal taste level,and I happen to know a little about sound recording quality,so I was speaking from that level,more so that if one likes it or not....it's almost impossible to get a good recording,using all the wrong equipment,and if you don't use all of that you have to work with,it can show very easily.
Part of the varience can aslo be to do with playback equipment as well....I'll have to put ROTD inot a samll boombox or something,and see how it sounds coming from little capacity,it may sound even worse to my ears.

There is also good sound,and good mixed sound...overall is what I'm on about,not one process or another.
If you have a good sound in the first place,a bad mix can subtract plenty from it.

As far as sameness goes,well you can't listen to too much music without evaluating a sameness about the artist,regardless of any sound flaws.
And I found Glover doing that to a bad effect on Abandon,during the second half of the disc,it tends to mush....I know it was engineered by Darren,but Roger produced it,so the song order selection/arrangement had something to do with this,just like on the mess that is THOBL.




Then on January 6 after our lengthy but necessary discussion, and despite your response to atle above, the explanation of the meaning of the original statement totaly changes to this version 3 :
quote:

Sorry to seem gospel to you,but anyone with eyes,and a keen sense,can clearly tell that the "oops" smiley was put there to slap sarcasm on that ridiculously outlandish statement.
I know I did the "period" thing somewhere else,sorry to have left out the emoticon on that one though,my mistake,cause it could make the one with the emoticon look like I was joking or something there.emoticon
So don't forget to put your IMHO every time you pass judgement on something here. emoticon



Statement #2

The Original statement made by GM on Jan 2 was this:
quote:

The mastering job is excellent on ROTD,the problem occured during the mixing stage,period.
(this album was mixed with haste,and would sound better with more time taken,and I find that to not be cost effective to my purchase)




My original response was to ask this question on Jan 2:
quote:

Please tell us how you can be sure "the problem occured during the mixing stage,period."

The only way anyone could make that kind of blanket statement is if they had the oppurtunity to listen the the original multi-track tapes, period.emoticon

If you have the software to do it, take a look at a WAV file, and you'll see clear evidence of the heavy compression that's been used during mastering to make the recording as loud as possible. ROTD is one of the worst I've ever seen.



You then responded with this on Jan 2, which leaves no doubt to me that you stand behind your original statement.

quote:

You are 100% wrong about this.....I've already commented that I listen to it with a sound professional in a home studio,and have been putting it through Pro Tools and Q-Base software.

It happened during the mixing process ByTor,period.
There is atleast one component that drops off about one third of the way through the cd.



Then on Jan 6, after our lengthy, but necessary fact finding exchange, you responded with this post : (I should point out that I most certainly read the entire thread prior to responding to both your original comments, that’s how I came across your “Good sound is not a matter of opinion” comment.)

quote:

I'm certain that you didn't follow my lead about this subject up to this point,as I was writing that post,I was reflecting here and there,on how I hear the album THUS FAR and that brought me to this exchange,and I should've considered that I was replying to someone who may not have read any of my previous asessments about it,as I'm not quite finished evaulating the album,as I told you,I don't live at the guys house,it's 30 friggen miles away,and I'll elaborate further on what has transpired since I made the post you replied to,later in this post,keep reading.



This response is very understandable to me, thank you.

That’s all I can do for now, I hope this all makes some sense to you. Like I mentioned earlier, it looks like we’re at the point where we understand where each other is or was coming from. I look forward to getting back to discussing the sound of ROTD at a latter date.


quote:

And I do agree about "VP" could it be,that we just have a case of producers working with bands that are normally of completely outside genres,I still think Bradford needs some practice mixing rock drums..too flat for my taste,maybe it's the Pro tools transferring,and nothing can help that?



You may be right about the producer thing GM, I can’t remember who worked on the Rush project.

You should have a look at this article at this link. It’s a good article on the sound of Rush’s VT. I think you’ll find it pretty interesting. A lot of what he says about the loss of dynamics applies to ROTD as well. The mastering on ROTD follows the same ugly trend that’s discussed here.I'm pretty sure this is what our friend Purpaholic was mentiong earlier on in this thread.I wish I had more time to discuss.

Does the Rush album cause problems on your player? If it doesn’t, then my theory of the mastering on ROTD causing your compatibility problem may not be right. Although in terms compression I think ROTD may be slightly worse. Just something to consider.

Vapour Trails Article from ProRec


Last edited by ByTor, 9/1/2006, 2:12
9/1/2006, 1:50 Link to this post  
 
Gillans micstand Profile
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Re: "Backyard" recording


quote:

Gillans micstand wrote:

You can count on my honesty,just not my accuracy. emoticon




Now lets put this past us...I've settled on ROTD as a "pedestrian" quality mix,and if there is an equipment failure,well there shouldn't be on my end.(but seemed to be a bit of one in the studio)

As for the producer on "VP" it was the producer of Marylyn Manson at the time,thats my I mentoned genres..


Thanks

Last edited by Gillans micstand, 9/1/2006, 18:05
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Re: "Backyard" recording


Now I'm bored... To much nonsense about something so obvious! The sound and production on ROTD S.U.C.K.S!!!! Period! End of discussion!!! Let's move on to something interesting! Is it true that Morse will leave the band? emoticon
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