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harryurz
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
quote: quote:
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harryurz wrote:
perhaps we ought to have a top ten most inaccurate films?
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Featuring the entire Oliver Stone filmography?
precisely- that ought to fill the top ten up straight away !!
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9/1/2005, 16:11
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Atle
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
Why is it everybody hate Oliver Stone's films? Ain't they accurate??
Is it JFK you have in mind here? Does Oliver Stone claim he is telling the truth?
Or is he offering a suggestion?
And if you know so damn well that Oliver Stone is wrong, why don't you tell me what really happened back then? I'm kinda curious...
--- In heaven, everything is fine...
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10/1/2005, 22:39
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Rezi
Registered: 04-2004
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
I don't think people hate his films.
I 'hate' his attitude and hypocrisy. He accuses historians for being "the priests of [ancient] Egypt" and babbling on how he has a right to make his own interpretations on history. Of course he does. Only Oliver Stone thinks he (himself) might not have...
However, in his historical films he heavily twists historicals events and people to fit his obsessions. For example, in JFK he cut the footage of JFK's speeches to support the popular belief that JFK was murdered because he didn't want USA to enter the war in Vietnam. That is bollocks, of course. If Stone would have showed more of the speeches, audiences had heard about JFK's plans to send more "military advisors" to Vietnam. But as that doesn't fit Stone's naive image of JFK, it was cut off.
And that he chose Garrison as the hero of his film tells all about it. The real Garrison was very far from the defender of justice and truth the film portrayed him to be. Now, I heard a radio interview recently where Stone was talking about his latest film. He said "all the SERIUOS historians agree with me on the character of Alexander the Great". Right... just as Garrison was "a serious historian on JFK" - well, he had to be as Stone based his film on Garrison's book!
Last edited by Rezi, 14/1/2005, 8:41
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14/1/2005, 8:35
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malm 51
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
Kelly's Heroes
Bat 21
Battle Of Britian
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22/1/2005, 1:28
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harryurz
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
quote: Why is it everybody hate Oliver Stone's films? Ain't they accurate??
Is it JFK you have in mind here? Does Oliver Stone claim he is telling the truth?
Or is he offering a suggestion?
And if you know so damn well that Oliver Stone is wrong, why don't you tell me what really happened back then? I'm kinda curious...
Alexander the great is the latest in old Olly's 'revisionist' (read fabricated) views on history - the worst by far of which is JFK. The trouble is film-goers not au fait with the actual events now accept them because its on film and it must therefore be right- these films become part of the historical fabric.
For the REAL story on the JFK assassination check out http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
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23/1/2005, 12:55
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Atle
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
quote: harryurz wrote:
quote: Why is it everybody hate Oliver Stone's films? Ain't they accurate??
Is it JFK you have in mind here? Does Oliver Stone claim he is telling the truth?
Or is he offering a suggestion?
And if you know so damn well that Oliver Stone is wrong, why don't you tell me what really happened back then? I'm kinda curious...
Alexander the great is the latest in old Olly's 'revisionist' (read fabricated) views on history - the worst by far of which is JFK. The trouble is film-goers not au fait with the actual events now accept them because its on film and it must therefore be right- these films become part of the historical fabric.
For the REAL story on the JFK assassination check out http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Rezi, here's addressed to you as well.
Thanks for your responses. It's interesting reading, though it does not convience me.
Rezi, what you claim is bollocks, it might be, but how come you're so sure?
Two things can be said for sure about the JFK case:
1 The case is not solved, and the truth is not known to the public, if to anyone.
2 There are uncaountable therories going on about what happened. I don't think a single one of them is perfectly right.
Harry, if the trouble is that the audience don't know hat really happened, ain't it a bit unfair to use that argument in the JFK case? And if it's right that (parts of) the audience believe what a motion picture show them is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God! But ain't it a bit silly after all to blame Oliver Stone for that?
--- In heaven, everything is fine...
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23/1/2005, 20:07
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Rezi
Registered: 04-2004
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
Atle, I'm not an expert on the murder of JFK (I guess people are trying to figure out who actually is...), but I'm quite familiar with
1. The background of Stone's film JFK
2. Stone's comments on history/historians
3. The problems of film and history
To get familiar with scholar views of the film JFK and Stone as a maker of historical films, you might be interested two books dealing with the issues by the American historian Robert Rosenstone (Visions of the Past and Revisiting the Past). And there's also an interesting article by Robert Burgoyne ('Modernism and the Narrative of Nation in JFK') in The Persistence of History (ed.by Vivien Sobchack).
You see, my point ISN'T about who killed John F. Kennedy. I'm talking about Stone's film and him as a filmmaker - and him being the kind to force 'history' to drive his own political obsessions. For example, the basis of the film JFK is the claim that JFK was murdered because he didn't want USA to join the Vietnam war. There is no evidence of such attitude in the historical character of JFK, quite the opposite, of which I mentioned an example in a previous post (and keeping in mind his operations in Cuba).
The way the film works is that despite all the complicity of events and related parties, the pure, unpolitical and utterly democratic character of "Garrison" (read: the star image of Kevin Costner) is RIGHT. And no matter there are quite tastless claims and implications in the film, like LBJ being involved in the conspiracy to murder JFK. Small wonder that among the harshest critics of the film were the likes of president Gerald Ford.
Having said all this, I found JFK a very entertaining film with great actors.
Last edited by Rezi, 25/1/2005, 7:59
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24/1/2005, 7:52
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harryurz
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
quote: Harry, if the trouble is that the audience don't know hat really happened, ain't it a bit unfair to use that argument in the JFK case? And if it's right that (parts of) the audience believe what a motion picture show them is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God! But ain't it a bit silly after all to blame Oliver Stone for that?
Im one of those persons who tend to question what im told/told to accept as fact (ive got a chemistry background so its second nature by now lol) I just wish people would accept the likes of the JFK film as pure entertainment- not informative 'faction'.
Conspiracy theories abound about just about everything - its a late 20th century thing that evolved from the Watergate era and the loss of confidence the public have in government and the establishment.
The great thing is that 'researchers' and 'experts' can make an awful lot of money proposing wierd and wonderful theories about anything because people who want to believe will lap it all up- irrespective of if theres a shred of evidence in support or not.
Wow! surprising what an innocent thread kicks off
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24/1/2005, 22:37
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MrEd45
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Registered: 09-2003
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
I'd like to suggest someone start a thread to discuss Oliver Stone's films. It looks like it'd make for one interesting - to say the least! - discussion.
That said, I have to agree with people here cautioning against people relying on ANY movie maker's product as being 'factual'. I'd advise to check into as many resources (books, documentary films,etc.,etc.) as is practical, at least.
Seeing as we had a rather lengthy discussion about the JFK assassination on a previous thread - I'll dredge it up, if anyone's interested - I'll only say this about it: Just watch the Zapruder film. How anyone can deny that the man was fatally wounded in the head from a shot only slightly to his side and not from directly behind his right shoulder is beyond me. There was at least one reason that that film was kept locked away for at least 4 or 5 years after the assassination...and protecting the image of a 'fallen idol' or protecting the 'sensibilities' of the American public or not wanting to put the Kennedy family (Jackie has been cited in this particular reasoning quite often) through the horror/agony again ain't acceptable (to me) as being a or any of the reason(s).
--- " Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.
" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
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24/1/2005, 22:53
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Atle
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Re: TOP 10 war movies
quote: harryurz wrote:
I just wish people would accept the likes of the JFK film as pure entertainment- not informative 'faction'.
Me too! And I believe that if you do, there's not much critic one can direct against JFK any or other Stone's films.
A couple of friends of mine are seriously Doors fans, no less than I'm a fan of DP. Their comments on Oliver Stone's "The Doors" is that it is a great movie, they love it, but, also according to Ray Manzarek, it has nothing to do with the Doors. It's nothing but Oliver Stones image of a popular myth. And so what? I, for one, still love the film. It doesn't tell me the whole truth, but like JFK, the film tell me things I didn't know.
--- In heaven, everything is fine...
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25/1/2005, 17:43
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