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Carramba
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Registered: 09-2003
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
Rezi wrote:
Let's not forget that as a 20th century mass murdering, Soviet Union's Gulag preceded the Nazis chronologically and actually. The difference is that Stalin murdered anyone, while Hitler had a logic, dreadful as it was (Jews, communists, homosexuals, handicapped people). But still the Nazis had observed the Russian procedures and so followed their lead.
Yup, not to mention the Ottoman massacre of the Armenians which was completely ignored by the world. Hitler even said that if the Ottomans could get away with it, then he certainly would get away with it too.
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29/4/2005, 17:16
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Carramba
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
PoshOldSlapper wrote:
But I would add one extra qualification.
What if the Nazis had been led by someone BETTER than Hitler, and therefore WORSE for everyone else?
For example, someone with the strategic brain of a Rommel? The outcome might have been very different for us all. Particularly on this side of the Channel.
Another great point that I will elaborate on.
A smarter leader could have easily won the war for Germany. What if Germany never invaded Russia? Would fortress Europa ever be penetrable then? How about someone who would have believed in the nuclear program more? If Germany gets the bomb first (which at one point it could have), then who would be messing with the Third Reich then?
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29/4/2005, 17:20
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MrEd45
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
Rezi wrote:
Let's not forget that as a 20th century mass murdering, Soviet Union's Gulag preceded the Nazis chronologically and actually. The difference is that Stalin murdered anyone, while Hitler had a logic, dreadful as it was (Jews, communists, homosexuals, handicapped people). But still the Nazis had observed the Russian procedures and so followed their lead.
And didn't both Stalin + Hitler accuse the British - well, Churchill in particular, he was the 'figurehead, or CEO at the time of WWII, if you will - of being hypocrites for daring to even imply there was anything wrong with the Russian's or Nazi's treatment(s) of people that those governments considered as 'undesirables' as they claimed they were following the British 'model' for 'concentration'* camps that was allegedly started by the British during the Boer War in South Africa?
* 'Concentration' in this sense merely meaning to concentrate the prisoners in designated areas specifically built for the purpose of incarceration, not necessarily as a 'death factory', ala Aushwitz, Dachau, etc.,etc.
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" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.
" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
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29/4/2005, 20:13
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MrEd45
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
Carramba wrote:
quote:
PoshOldSlapper wrote:
What if the Nazis had been led by someone BETTER than Hitler, and therefore WORSE for everyone else?
For example, someone with the strategic brain of a Rommel? The outcome might have been very different for us all. Particularly on this side of the Channel.
Another great point that I will elaborate on.
A smarter leader could have easily won the war for Germany. What if Germany never invaded Russia? Would fortress Europa ever be penetrable then? How about someone who would have believed in the nuclear program more? If Germany gets the bomb first (which at one point it could have), then who would be messing with the Third Reich then?
You betcha arses it likely would've been a completely different outcome if the Germans had been led by someone with half a clue regarding military strategy + tactics. To say nothing about someone who wouldn't've regarded physics as a "Jewish" science and as thus to be not only disregarded, but punishable by potential imprisonment/death if one was caught espousing or practicing it.
It is scary, because Hitler - with a few relatively slight changes - could well have been in posession of the world's first nuclear missiles. 
---
" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.
" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
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29/4/2005, 20:42
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Atle
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
MrEd45 wrote:
It is scary, because Hitler - with a few relatively slight changes - could well have been in posession of the world's first nuclear missiles.
A good thing that never happened! 
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"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
- Dylan
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29/4/2005, 21:01
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MrEd45
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
quote:
Carramba wrote:
quote:
PoshOldSlapper wrote:
What if the Nazis had been led by someone BETTER than Hitler, and therefore WORSE for everyone else?
For example, someone with the strategic brain of a Rommel? The outcome might have been very different for us all. Particularly on this side of the Channel.
A smarter leader could have easily won the war for Germany. What if Germany never invaded Russia? Would fortress Europa ever be penetrable then? How about someone who would have believed in the nuclear program more? If Germany gets the bomb first (which at one point it could have), then who would be messing with the Third Reich then?
I just thought I'd add that some of my favorite reading has always been the 'alternative history/what if' stuff that has WWII as the setting. I'll be happy to reccomend a few -
"Fox On The Rhine" + "Fox At The Front" by Douglas Niles + Michael Dobson
"The Divide" by William Overgard
"SS/GB" by Len Deighton
"Fatherland" by Robert Harris
Those are just the first few that came right to mind...
Last edited by MrEd45, 30/4/2005, 5:26
---
" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.
" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
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30/4/2005, 3:37
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Rezi
Registered: 04-2004
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
A couple of comments:
Ed, you're right to make the distinction between concentration camps and camps that were designed and used primarily for murdering. The first concentration camps in the Third Reich were set up as soon as the Nazis rose to power, whereas the destroying camps were mainly set up after the Wannsee conference in 1942 - and that was the meeting that has been seen as the true start of Shoah.
Carramba, I agree with you on the other points, but you are definitely wrong about Germany's chanches in the WW2. The army was horrifieed to learn Hitler is starting the war, because (apart from hardly wanting a war - the last time people around Europe were excited about a war had been in 1914...) they knew the build-up was far from ready.
And what if Germany (Hitler, as every soldier was against it, apart from yes-men like Keitel) had not attacked Russia? It is still an open case, but every more piece of evidence found in the opening Russian archives suggest that Stalin was waiting for the right moment to attack Germany.
Germany did succeed for a couple of years because they were better at tactics than anybody else. They, so I believe, the only major power to score major victories (often by attacking, when the attacker should have at least 3:1 superiority to expect success) even when seriously outnumbered and -gunned. In the east, they never even had an option for that.
Hitler's and Stalin's thinking crossed each other in a crucial moment and that sealed the outcome of the Eastern front. Whereas Stalin realised he must stop the 'not a single step back' strategy and give his generals more freedom, Hitler tied the hands of his generals, not realising he had the best field commanders and staff generals in the world under his command. This all came about in 1942.
However, what really won that battle was the western Allied (Britain, but above all, USA) material assistance for USSR. To give you the scale: USA handed over half a million trucks. It is said that the Red Army ate American food, fired American shells and bullets and rode American vechiles.
As for Rommel, who was brilliant but made that crucial mistake in Normandy (yes, it was him, not Hitler who held back the reserves, believing that there would be a second invasion in Calais). Of course, from there we get to Monty who recieved so much glory for beating Rommel in Africa. Yes, but with that difference in both men and material, it is unlikely that Monty would have gotten half as long as Rommel did.
Last edited by Rezi, 3/5/2005, 6:08
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2/5/2005, 6:59
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PoshOldSlapper
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Registered: 07-2004
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
As this weekend was the anniversary of Hitler's own pistol shot into his head, there have been plenty of repeats of Days That Shook the World.
Their Hitler's Final Hours program is coupled with the Gavril Princip/Franz Ferdinand one.
Their line is very much the bullet that started WW1 and effectively WW2 and the bullet that ended it.
Yes, the Sarajevo event was a major conspiracy.
Here is a link that is as good as the script of the "Days" program. It names all the conspirators and explains how the Archduke ended up in the same street as Princip.
19 year olds are capable of doing more than enough of their own damage.......
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/sarajevo.html
Last edited by PoshOldSlapper, 4/5/2005, 11:44
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4/5/2005, 11:18
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PoshOldSlapper
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
Hitler and the Atom Bomb?
It all comes down to Heisenberg, as in Uncertainty Priciple.
There is a view that Heisenberg may have known more than he was prepared to admit, and therefore did the honourable thing and stalled Germany getting hold of the bomb.
However, in this case, it appears that Heisenberg was certain, and for all of us, fortunately, completely WRONG.
By August 1945, Heisenberg and some of his coworkers were imprisoned in the UK.
Therefore their reactions to the atom bomb on Hiroshima were heard in real time by their captors.
The story goes that they were completely dumbfounded that anyone could have built an atom bomb.
It appears Heisenberg had miscalculated the density of the neutron cloud created by uranium, and therefore, the volume of uranium required to sustain a chain reaction.
He had estimated it would take a sphere of uranium of approx 3-4 FEET in diameter (about a metre, I have to remember we are international here !)
Obviously all the pictures of the uranium bomb - Little Boy - used on Hiroshima show that the US actually used significantly less.
There was a great scene in the program about Heisenberg and his reputation that showed the difference.
It was stark, and I could feel the waves of relief. rippling down my back ..........
The volume of Plutonium needed,and as used in the Trinity test and the Nagasaki bomb - Fat Man - is about a third - about the size of an orange. That is why the US scientists needed to use the implosion method to trigger the chain reaction.
It is not possible to slam hemispheres of plutonium together. The lens system to concentrate the shock is incredibly complex.
Which is why they tested it at Trinity.
The Germans were that close. If Heisenberg had got his sums right, coupled with the V2 ballistic missile, which was already wreaking havoc .....
God Only Knows..........
POS
Last edited by PoshOldSlapper, 4/5/2005, 11:45
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4/5/2005, 11:42
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jond
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Registered: 12-2003
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question
Yes, conincidence (or its occasioanal absence) can be a worthwhile thing.
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4/5/2005, 11:50
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