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Registered: 05-2006
Posts: 338
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

You've obviously never heard real Genesis. Genesis failed to exist after Gabriel's departure and was a complete sham. As big a change from real Peter Green blues based true original Fleetwood Mac to the poppy AOR wishy washy elevator muzac sham that went on to falsely bear the Fleetwood Mac name.

The real Genesis made collossal albums which you have obviously never heard:
1970 Trespass
1971 Nursery Cryme
1972 Foxtrot
1973 Selling England By The Pound
1974 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (double studio album)

These compare with Purple's In Rock, Fireball, MH, WDWTWA phase and halcyon days peak between 1970-1973.

It is the same for Genesis. The sham that went on to maquarade as 'Genesis' certainly wasn't and the reality is that the band Genesis ceased to exist. Genesis were a prog rock band, with serious credentials which lightweight poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" / "Easy Lover" Collins made a complete joke of and made 'Genesis' a laughing stock among the prog rock masses who deserted them to be replaced by pop fan legions feeding on the poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins lighgtweight poppy crap.

Collins wasn't even the original Genesis drummer.

Stuff such as Get Em Out By Friday, Suppers Ready, Musical Box, The Knife - that was Genesis. Not the poppy crap that was put out by a band calling themselves 'Genesis' fronted by Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins.

The true master and only vocalist worthy of the title in Genesis was Gabriel, and who was inspired by the vocalist in the band Family.



With all due respect, Genesis did indeed survive Gabriel's departure. The first two releases after he left are excellent albums and quite worthy of the Genesis name. When Hackett left is another story. Once they lost his distinctive sound, they were Genesis in name only. Although Hackett was not a founding member of the band, he became just as important, if not more so, than Gabriel. It's all down to opinion of course, but for me the real decline started after Hackett left. One can also tear apart Collins' career as a pop crooner, but his skills behind the kit are another story. He may not have been the original drummer, but he's certainly an immensely talented drummer in his own right. To deny that is pure foolishness. Have you ever heard of Brand X or even listened to the drumming on any of the classic Genesis albums you listed?
8/7/2007, 20:00 Link to this post Send Email to metaljim1   Send PM to metaljim1
 
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Registered: 01-2007
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

metaljim1 wrote:

One can also tear apart Collins' career as a pop crooner, but his skills behind the kit are another story. He may not have been the original drummer, but he's certainly an immensely talented drummer in his own right. To deny that is pure foolishness. Have you ever heard of Brand X or even listened to the drumming on any of the classic Genesis albums you listed?


You mention about Collins' ability as a drummer. That isn't in question, wasn't questioned by me, and you miss the point. It was his ability or lack of in his masquarade in trying to replace the master, Gabriel, on vocals.

You then go on, still at a tangent, about Collins' drumming ability and ask me if I have ever listened to his drumming emoticon
Have you ever listened to Blackmore or Paice? Is the sky blue?
Maybe asking such a question would be foolish emoticon
The reason for mentioning that Collins wasn't even the original drummer wasn't at all to question his drumming skills, rather that he wasn't an original band member so not as if he had some devine right through that aspect, except through simply continuing to be a decent drummer in the band. Some, not yourself, wrongly assume that Collins was an original member, therefore some automatic right of passage to be anything at all in the band but that assumption by some is incorrect.

You then mention Trick and also WAW.

I would admit that I have even liked much of Trick. But it isn't a 'Genesis' album. It is significantly different to Genesis albums such as Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Lamb. It lacks vital ingredients and the feel is all wrong. More so WAW. Yes, there is a semblence of 'business as usual' but it has an emptiness that screams out "this is not true Genesis". The poppy and comparative lightweight Collins was evident to the faithful from the outset. Ripples is reckoned by some to be a classic Genesis piece, but it doesn't have the 'underground' and serious prog-rock feel of previous albums that Gabriel evoked and gave serious weight to. Collins gave it a more sing-along wishy washy feel. A feel that merely got much worse and more poppy on later albums.

To suggest that Hackett was more important to the Genesis sound than Gabriel is sheer folly of enormous proportions. On essential classic tracks such as Suppers Ready it is Gabriel that is prominent, not Hackett. Like when Gabriel yells out "Six six six..." on Suppers Ready, or when he yells out "Now, now, now, now, NOW!!" on Musical Box. Gabriel's presence was all consuming and immense on the real Genesis albums.

Gabriel's replacement with Collins, was like taking Robert Plant out of Zep, and replacing him with Bonham on vocals, or some other weak replacement vocally, and carrying on for years. Would it still have been Zep? Of course it wouldn't, no matter how much the name was still kept and the masquarade maintained. It would have been far better and more honest and true if they had changed their name. The commercial success they went on to enjoy, with an audience who mostly never knew the band of old, would have been the honest and right thing to do.

Don't kid yourself. 'Genesis' ended with Gabriel's departure. It was an entirely different band from then on, just even more so after Hackett's departure.


Last edited by Giant Hogweed, 9/7/2007, 7:15


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8/7/2007, 21:48 Link to this post Send Email to Giant Hogweed   Send PM to Giant Hogweed
 
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Registered: 05-2004
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


Peter Gabriel without any doubt.
9/7/2007, 10:50 Link to this post Send Email to Blackmore on   Send PM to Blackmore on
 
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Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

quote:

metaljim1 wrote:

One can also tear apart Collins' career as a pop crooner, but his skills behind the kit are another story. He may not have been the original drummer, but he's certainly an immensely talented drummer in his own right. To deny that is pure foolishness. Have you ever heard of Brand X or even listened to the drumming on any of the classic Genesis albums you listed?


You mention about Collins' ability as a drummer. That isn't in question, wasn't questioned by me, and you miss the point. It was his ability or lack of in his masquarade in trying to replace the master, Gabriel, on vocals.

You then go on, still at a tangent, about Collins' drumming ability and ask me if I have ever listened to his drumming emoticon
Have you ever listened to Blackmore or Paice? Is the sky blue?
Maybe asking such a question would be foolish emoticon
The reason for mentioning that Collins wasn't even the original drummer wasn't at all to question his drumming skills, rather that he wasn't an original band member so not as if he had some devine right through that aspect, except through simply continuing to be a decent drummer in the band. Some, not yourself, wrongly assume that Collins was an original member, therefore some automatic right of passage to be anything at all in the band but that assumption by some is incorrect.

You then mention Trick and also WAW.

I would admit that I have even liked much of Trick. But it isn't a 'Genesis' album. It is significantly different to Genesis albums such as Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and Lamb. It lacks vital ingredients and the feel is all wrong. More so WAW. Yes, there is a semblence of 'business as usual' but it has an emptiness that screams out "this is not true Genesis". The poppy and comparative lightweight Collins was evident to the faithful from the outset. Ripples is reckoned by some to be a classic Genesis piece, but it doesn't have the 'underground' and serious prog-rock feel of previous albums that Gabriel evoked and gave serious weight to. Collins gave it a more sing-along wishy washy feel. A feel that merely got much worse and more poppy on later albums.

To suggest that Hackett was more important to the Genesis sound than Gabriel is sheer folly of enormous proportions. On essential classic tracks such as Suppers Ready it is Gabriel that is prominent, not Hackett. Like when Gabriel yells out "Six six six..." on Suppers Ready, or when he yells out "Now, now, now, now, NOW!!" on Musical Box. Gabriel's presence was all consuming and immense on the real Genesis albums.

Gabriel's replacement with Collins, was like taking Robert Plant out of Zep, and replacing him with Bonham on vocals, or some other weak replacement vocally, and carrying on for years. Would it still have been Zep? Of course it wouldn't, no matter how much the name was still kept and the masquarade maintained. It would have been far better and more honest and true if they had changed their name. The commercial success they went on to enjoy, with an audience who mostly never knew the band of old, would have been the honest and right thing to do.

Don't kid yourself. 'Genesis' ended with Gabriel's departure. It was an entirely different band from then on, just even more so after Hackett's departure.



I thought Collins showed more range on "Supper's Ready" on "Seconds Out" than what Gabrial did on this Youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtHClRu1DrE

And I don't think Gabriel could have shown the range on up tempo songs like "Dancing on the Volcano", "Squonk", or "Eleventh Earl of Mars".

And I was never a fan of Phil Collins/Genesis lounge music material either. But one the two albums where Genesis was a four some and one a few later songs, Collins showed more range.
9/7/2007, 14:54 Link to this post Send Email to Diostillrocks   Send PM to Diostillrocks
 
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Registered: 01-2007
Posts: 27
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Diostillrocks wrote:

I thought Collins showed more range on "Supper's Ready" on "Seconds Out" than what Gabrial did on this Youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtHClRu1DrE

And I don't think Gabriel could have shown the range on up tempo songs like "Dancing on the Volcano", "Squonk", or "Eleventh Earl of Mars".

And I was never a fan of Phil Collins/Genesis lounge music material either. But one the two albums where Genesis was a four some and one a few later songs, Collins showed more range.


Volcano, Squoink, and Eleventh Earl Of Mar (Mars emoticon ) are not true Genesis tracks anyway, being after the departure of the master Gabriel. Incidenatlly, the YouTube link didn't work when I tried it. The vid stalled and wouldn't load.

Good to know you weren't a fan of the lounge music that a band masquarading under the falsehood of 'Genesis' punted out using Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins. You still need your ears cleaned out or new ear implants if you reckon Collins' had a better range. Gabriel had a much richer voice with greater dynamics and force, e.g. on Suppers Ready when he yells "Six, six, six" or on Musical Box when he yells "Now, now, now, now, NOW!!"

You reckon poppy Phil is better on Suppers Ready, so why isn't he singing either Suppers Ready or Musical Box on the current sham tour then. The reason is simple. He knows he can't emulate the master, Gabriel.

If you think the loss of Blackmore to Purple causes division, and that isn't doubted, the loss of Gabriel was a hundred times more critical and divisive to the true Genesis faithful. It causes bitter division amongst the true faithful who see Genesis as a band that ceased to be after 1975.

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9/7/2007, 17:02 Link to this post Send Email to Giant Hogweed   Send PM to Giant Hogweed
 
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 1841
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

quote:

Diostillrocks wrote:

I thought Collins showed more range on "Supper's Ready" on "Seconds Out" than what Gabrial did on this Youtube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtHClRu1DrE

And I don't think Gabriel could have shown the range on up tempo songs like "Dancing on the Volcano", "Squonk", or "Eleventh Earl of Mars".

And I was never a fan of Phil Collins/Genesis lounge music material either. But one the two albums where Genesis was a four some and one a few later songs, Collins showed more range.


Volcano, Squoink, and Eleventh Earl Of Mar (Mars emoticon ) are not true Genesis tracks anyway, being after the departure of the master Gabriel. Incidenatlly, the YouTube link didn't work when I tried it. The vid stalled and wouldn't load.

Good to know you weren't a fan of the lounge music that a band masquarading under the falsehood of 'Genesis' punted out using Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins. You still need your ears cleaned out or new ear implants if you reckon Collins' had a better range. Gabriel had a much richer voice with greater dynamics and force, e.g. on Suppers Ready when he yells "Six, six, six" or on Musical Box when he yells "Now, now, now, now, NOW!!"

You reckon poppy Phil is better on Suppers Ready, so why isn't he singing either Suppers Ready or Musical Box on the current sham tour then. The reason is simple. He knows he can't emulate the master, Gabriel.

If you think the loss of Blackmore to Purple causes division, and that isn't doubted, the loss of Gabriel was a hundred times more critical and divisive to the true Genesis faithful. It causes bitter division amongst the true faithful who see Genesis as a band that ceased to be after 1975.




The reason they aren't doing Supper's Ready on the current tour is that the song is 24 minutes long. This is not the 70's anymore and audiences aren't going to listen to long songs like that anymore.
9/7/2007, 17:21 Link to this post Send Email to Diostillrocks   Send PM to Diostillrocks
 
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Registered: 01-2007
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Diostillrocks wrote:

The reason they aren't doing Supper's Ready on the current tour is that the song is 24 minutes long. This is not the 70's anymore and audiences aren't going to listen to long songs like that anymore.


Nice try emoticon

Phil "Can't Hurry Love / "Easy Lover" Collins just can't sing prog rock masterpieces such as Suppers Ready, Musical Box, The Return Of The Giant Hogweed, The Knife, Get Em Out By Friday, and all the other serious prog rock stuff. Poppy Phil is an incapable lightweight. His singing is too wishy washy and a complete joke when it comes to the serious prog rock stuff. A fish out of water.

Its the same reason why Coverdale never tried Child In Time, and guitarists after Blackmore never tried to emulate the tricks and style of a true genius.

Poppy Phil has been slated by the true Genesis faithful for long enough and he knows what not to even try any more. He always goes for the soft options like Carpet Crawlers that suits his poppy lightweight image and 'voice' such as it is.


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9/7/2007, 17:33 Link to this post Send Email to Giant Hogweed   Send PM to Giant Hogweed
 
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The Best Part(s) !

Registered: 12-2005
Posts: 1430
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

quote:

Knopflers Fingers wrote:

quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

quote:

Diostillrocks wrote:

I know I may be committing blastophamy here, but I will say Phil Collins.
I think his vocal range is wider and he put more energy into Gabriel's songs on Seconds Out than what Gabriel ever did.


Blasphemy? I'll say

Vocal range of Collins? Have you ever heard the original studio version of Suppers Ready? Its a 25 or 30 minute epic prog rock track with incredible vocal intensity that Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins just insulted with his poppy lightweight crap.

Its like comparing Ian Gillan's vocals on the original In Rock studio version of Child In Time with Joe Lynn Turner trying to sing the same song live. The intensity of the original couldn't be matched.

Are you seriously suggesting that Phil "Can't Hurry Love" / "Easy Lover" Collins sang with anything like the same intensity as Gabriel did on Suppers Ready? Its a joke, right? emoticon




Phil for me too. And to answer in advance, no, its not a joke. To me hes way way better than Gabriel. Better range, better tone.


Better range than the master, Gabriel. Don't make me laugh. What a sad joke that is. Next you'll be telling us that Joe Lynn Turner is way better than Gillan and Coverdale combined, with better range and tone than both of them. Yeah, right. emoticon emoticon

You've obviously never heard real Genesis. Genesis failed to exist after Gabriel's departure and was a complete sham. As big a change from real Peter Green blues based true original Fleetwood Mac to the poppy AOR wishy washy elevator muzac sham that went on to falsely bear the Fleetwood Mac name.

The real Genesis made collossal albums which you have obviously never heard:
1970 Trespass
1971 Nursery Cryme
1972 Foxtrot
1973 Selling England By The Pound
1974 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (double studio album)

These compare with Purple's In Rock, Fireball, MH, WDWTWA phase and halcyon days peak between 1970-1973.

It is the same for Genesis. The sham that went on to maquarade as 'Genesis' certainly wasn't and the reality is that the band Genesis ceased to exist. Genesis were a prog rock band, with serious credentials which lightweight poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" / "Easy Lover" Collins made a complete joke of and made 'Genesis' a laughing stock among the prog rock masses who deserted them to be replaced by pop fan legions feeding on the poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins lighgtweight poppy crap.

Collins wasn't even the original Genesis drummer.

Stuff such as Get Em Out By Friday, Suppers Ready, Musical Box, The Knife - that was Genesis. Not the poppy crap that was put out by a band calling themselves 'Genesis' fronted by Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins.

The true master and only vocalist worthy of the title in Genesis was Gabriel, and who was inspired by the vocalist in the band Family.



Calm down man, people have diferent tastes and opinions, you know. I have heard the albuns you mentioned and TO ME they´re NOT good AT ALL. I prefer the albuns with Phil on vocals. Again, TO ME Phil is a better vocalist, songwriter. Trying to pass opinion as a fact is a very strange thing. If you think Gabriel is master etc etc there´s nothing wrong with that, but saying that people that dont agree with that are wrong or tone death is just ridiculous. Its not science.

Not a fan of Gabriel, i "simpatize" with him because hes a supporter of Alejandro Jodorowsky and thats all emoticon
9/7/2007, 22:17 Link to this post Send Email to Knopflers Fingers   Send PM to Knopflers Fingers
 
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Registered: 01-2007
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Knopflers Fingers wrote:

quote:

Giant Hogweed wrote:

The real Genesis made collossal albums which you don't like:
1970 Trespass
1971 Nursery Cryme
1972 Foxtrot
1973 Selling England By The Pound
1974 The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (double studio album)

These compare with Purple's In Rock, Fireball, MH, WDWTWA phase and halcyon days peak between 1970-1973.

It is the same for Genesis. The sham that went on to maquarade as 'Genesis' certainly wasn't and the reality is that the band Genesis ceased to exist. Genesis were a prog rock band, with serious credentials which lightweight poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" / "Easy Lover" Collins made a complete joke of and made 'Genesis' a laughing stock among the prog rock masses who deserted them to be replaced by pop fan legions feeding on the poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins lighgtweight poppy crap.

Collins wasn't even the original Genesis drummer.

Stuff such as Get Em Out By Friday, Suppers Ready, Musical Box, The Knife - that was Genesis. Not the poppy crap that was put out by a band calling themselves 'Genesis' fronted by Phil "Can't Hurry Love" Collins.




Calm down man, people have diferent tastes and opinions, you know. I have heard the albuns you mentioned and TO ME they´re NOT good AT ALL. I prefer the albuns with Phil on vocals. Again, TO ME Phil is a better vocalist, songwriter. Trying to pass opinion as a fact is a very strange thing. If you think Gabriel is master etc etc there´s nothing wrong with that, but saying that people that dont agree with that are wrong or tone death is just ridiculous. Its not science.

Not a fan of Gabriel, i "simpatize" with him because hes a supporter of Alejandro Jodorowsky and thats all emoticon


You miss the point. 'Genesis' was a prog rock band, not the poppy wishy washy elevator muzak punted out using poppy Phil "Can't Hurry Love" / "Easy Lover" Collins. If they had changed the band name to anything other than 'Genesis' that would have been fine. It would have been the honest thing to do instead of masquarading as something poppy Phil his wishy washy elevator muzak wasn't.

That you don't like the major albums is fine as well, and which correlates to Purple run of albums In Rock, Fireball, MH, WDWTWA over a similar period. Its similar to saying you prefer the current Purple line-up albums to those between 70-73. Not a question of whether you like the albums, but that was the main era and real 'Genesis'. Not the wishy washy poppy non-prog stuff that came after with poppy Phil, and which should have been under a different band name.

The thing is that with Collins, it is too poppy / sing-a-long, e.g on Ripples. Gabriel always had a more serious, even sinister, edge. 'Genesis' was a prog rock band with serious credentials, and which poppy Phil doesn't fit with at all. Its a different band.

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10/7/2007, 12:49 Link to this post Send Email to Giant Hogweed   Send PM to Giant Hogweed
 
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Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Best Genesis vocalist.


quote:

Diostillrocks wrote:
The reason they aren't doing Supper's Ready on the current tour is that the song is 24 minutes long. This is not the 70's anymore and audiences aren't going to listen to long songs like that anymore.



Plenty of people would be more than happy to hear SR in it's entirity. If they had (as originally planned) reunited the 5-piece Genesis then I'm quite sure they would have played the whole thing to a very warm resception. Lord knows I'd be very happy to hear it and at 24 minutes that would not be the longest track I've heard performed live in the last year.

I must admit I do like the 4-piece Genesis albums, they weren't as good as the Gabriel ones, but Hackett was a great guitarist and kept it musically interesting. Everything after his departure is just pure garbage.
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