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Dartagnan
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Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
waldo wrote:
"afraid of silence" - good point
It's the curse of the little finger, in my view (please bear in mind that I'm ecstatic about Liverpool's aggregate win tonight, so anything I say is gospel, ok! For tonight only -humour me).
Fluency, fluidity, whatever you want to call it, has taken the place of 'feeling'! Not playing is as important as playing, if you see what I mean. Clapton was a master at it, so to Hendrix. They learnt this from the great players of the past. Unfortunately, as dexterity has improved and technique has become the bleedin' 'b' all and 'end all', so the average guitar solo has become an exercise in proving the size of one's b*llocks. It has a tendency to have nowt to do with the song, but more to do with the guitarist saying "'ave some of that" - which, of course, to a serious musician,is akin to saying, "I know this is completely unconnected to the song, but heh, I'm here to impress, so f**k the song". One of my favourite players is Richard Thompson. Now he can really play 'the guitar'. Not in a Steve Vai sense, but actually 'play' the guitar. In a way that fits. In a way that makes sense. To the song. So too, Mark Knopfler. And on a good day, Blackers, too!
IfYouseewhatImean. That last bit of the sentence was an SM widdle.
If you can really take the SM solo on this thread over the JS solo, then I despair! The latter has the far better tone, and miles more taste.
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"I play the way I do because it allows me to come up with the sickest sounds possible. That's the point now isn't it?"
Jeff Beck
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6/3/2007, 22:38
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MAHO
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Registered: 11-2005
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Re: Satriani / Morse
Let's try to avoid developing this into a "My dad's bigger than your dad" kind of debate. There are already too many of those around here.
In reality, JS canät even play guitar. His guitar hero status is solely due to a very successful marketing campaign. In fact, he uses a body double during tours. Did you know that?
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jfm
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7/3/2007, 0:06
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Beese
Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Dartagnan wrote:
Unfortunately, as dexterity has improved and technique has become the bleedin' 'b' all and 'end all', so the average guitar solo has become an exercise in proving the size of one's b*llocks. It has a tendency to have nowt to do with the song, but more to do with the guitarist saying "'ave some of that" - which, of course, to a serious musician,is akin to saying, "I know this is completely unconnected to the song, but heh, I'm here to impress, so f**k the song".
Dartagnan, you do realise that it isn't 1987 anymore and that statement isn't particularly true of rock music today?
Granted, there was so much of what you descibe in the 80s, sort of post-Van Halen, but that was the era in which these techniques were new and most guitarists (who weren't generally very good musicians) spent way more time learning how to play fast than learning how to compose music. The result was lots of pretty rubbish 3-choard songs that had a super-fast, pointless solo at about 3:30 mins into the track.
Technical guitarists can show huge ammounts of emotion, provided that they're basic musical ability and knowledge are up to encoreperating their technical skills. As MAHO said, there's isn't any corrolation between number of notes and 'emotional value' (which is totally subjective anyway).
The fact that technique has progressed and improved is brilliant and has opened the doors for guitarists to learn new things and be able to play a wider array of music, but like most other new things it went through a modeish period when most people didn't really know how to apply it. Frankly most of those musicians in the 80s would have been playing tedious slow solos if they hadn't been playing tedious fast ones.
Last edited by Beese, 7/3/2007, 3:27
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7/3/2007, 3:02
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Dartagnan
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Beese wrote:
quote:
Dartagnan wrote:
Unfortunately, as dexterity has improved and technique has become the bleedin' 'b' all and 'end all', so the average guitar solo has become an exercise in proving the size of one's b*llocks. It has a tendency to have nowt to do with the song, but more to do with the guitarist saying "'ave some of that" - which, of course, to a serious musician,is akin to saying, "I know this is completely unconnected to the song, but heh, I'm here to impress, so f**k the song".
Dartagnan, you do realise that it isn't 1987 anymore and that statement isn't particularly true of rock music today?
You're actually arguing against yourself! You're right, this isn't 1987, yet here we still have an example of technique triumphing over taste. This is a 'ballad', a slow song? This isn't Highway Star or Burn. Sloooooooooooooooow down, will ya!
I have no objection (I'm sure you'll be relieved to know) to speedy wizardry when it's appropriate. In this case, it isn't. IMHO.
Can you imagine if the tempo in Child In Time hadn't increased for Blacker's solo, yet he still attacked the song in the same way? Yuk. Instead, he builds it up from the slow beginning (I love that bit, it's played so beautifully), and ends it in a flurry of notes. Brilliant. Dynamic. Appropriate.
I'm not a old dinosaur who thinks all was best in the past - but to some extent, it kinda was! Isn't that why a lot of us post on this forum!
Don't you think that part of the reason why the likes of The Rolling Stones, Clapton, U2, can still fill huge arenas has something to do with the fact that the 'consumer' doesn't connect with all this wonderful technical wizardry you write about? Simply because it is a triumph of style over substance, and technique over taste. And in the end, meaningless?
I've had to put up with bands like flamin' Oasis because of this, I'm sure!
Last edited by Dartagnan, 7/3/2007, 9:08
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"I play the way I do because it allows me to come up with the sickest sounds possible. That's the point now isn't it?"
Jeff Beck
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7/3/2007, 7:48
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Dartagnan
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
MAHO wrote:
In reality, JS canät even play guitar.
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jfm
Yer! Right!
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"I play the way I do because it allows me to come up with the sickest sounds possible. That's the point now isn't it?"
Jeff Beck
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7/3/2007, 7:49
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MAHO
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Dartagnan wrote:
quote:
MAHO wrote:
In reality, JS canät even play guitar.
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jfm
Yer! Right!
I kid you not. It's all done with mirrors. And alien technology. Satriani is not even human. He's just a very cleverly managed hand puppet. It's actually Morse who does all the playing.
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jfm
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7/3/2007, 8:56
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Beese
Registered: 09-2003
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Beese wrote:
You're actually arguing against yourself! You're right, this isn't 1987, yet here we still have an example of technique triumphing over taste. This is a 'ballad', a slow song? This isn't Highway Star or Burn. Sloooooooooooooooow down, will ya!
I fail to see how I'm arguing against myself, considering this is the only post I've made in this thread and I wasn't necessarily leaping to SM's defence, moreover I was taking issue with, what could be described as a rather broad statement that, as I pointed out, wasn't really that true anymore. You made it sound like this style of playing was everywhere and that all contemporary guitarists play in such a style, with what might be called 'needlessly fast' solos.
Like yourself I don't enjoy speed for the sake of speed, if the music composed is lacking then it doesn't matter how fast a guitar solo you slap on it, it's going to be crap.
However I am a big fan of technically versatile guitarists and although speed is often one of those skills I wouldn't say a guitarist is technically brilliant just because they can play 50-million note a second, there's far more to it than that.
Personally I'm a big fan of guitarists who use their technique to play versatile, varied and unpredictable music. I find guitarists who always play in the same style to be quite boring. I find Malmsteen tedious and predictable for the most part and I'd say the same of David Gilmour, although their styles are different I find both to be generally quite dull, because I don't find their playing to be particularly varied. For me it doesn't make any difference if a guitar player is running up-and-down scales or always drawing out the usual notes, both can be great, but if used all the time they become tedious (at least to me).
I'd far rather listen to someone like Steve Howe, because his technical skill coupled with his musical knowledge are used to make varied and interesting music, Howe doesn't sound the same on everything because he has the technical ability to play in many different styles and on many different guitar-types, he also has the ability to put these skills to good musical use. Personally I'd say he's far more technically skilled than Malmsteen or Satriani.
quote:
Don't you think that part of the reason why the likes of The Rolling Stones, Clapton, U2, can still fill huge arenas has something to do with the fact that the 'consumer' doesn't connect with all this wonderful technical wizardry you write about?
Not really you can't argue people don't like one thing because they enjoy another. The fact that these bands perform well financially doesn't have much to do with other artists music. I don't think many people go to see those bands because they lack technical brilliance.
That's like saying 'Don't you think that part of the reason why the likes of Eminem, J-Z and 50 Cent can fill huge arenas has something to do with the fact that the 'consumer' doesn't connect with anything that involves musical instruments.' It may be true, but so what?
Anyway the continued success of those artists has far more to do with the way they have been marketed (which is brilliantly).
To surmise my point; a technically and musically proficient player has obvious advantages over those players who are only skilled in one of those areas (or neither). The better ones technical ability the more things one can do with their instrument(s). However, technical ability shouldn't be a substitute for musical ability, one should be utilised to farther the other.
Last edited by Beese, 8/3/2007, 6:44
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8/3/2007, 2:30
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Beese
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Re: Satriani / Morse
Oh and on the subject of Steve's version of WABMC, personally I think he plays the whole thing far better than Blackmore, except for the solo.
I'm listening to the Rotterdam Ahoy version and the whole song is superb, particularly the opening with the orchestra and Steve's 'celloing'. However I agree that he added a few too many notes in the solo when they weren't particularly apt. Which is a shame because I still think Steve's actually quite good at playing the slower solos aside form the fact that he ha a tendancy to add a few too many notes before they're needed.
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8/3/2007, 6:49
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Dartagnan
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Beese wrote:
However I agree that he added a few too many notes in the solo when they weren't particularly apt. Which is a shame because I still think Steve's actually quite good at playing the slower solos aside form the fact that he ha a tendancy to add a few too many notes before they're needed.
At last! You agree then. And there aren't 'a few too many notes', there are far too many notes. IMHO.
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"I play the way I do because it allows me to come up with the sickest sounds possible. That's the point now isn't it?"
Jeff Beck
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8/3/2007, 7:24
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Beese
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Re: Satriani / Morse
quote:
Dartagnan wrote:
At last! You agree then. And there aren't 'a few too many notes', there are far too many notes. IMHO.
Well that was the first thing I actually said specifically on the subject of Steve's solo in WABMC. I don't think there are far too many notes, but I suppose that's just personal.
Actually I relistened to the original today and I actually have to say that I don't think Ritchie's solo is that brilliant. There's just something that smacks just a little of laziness on the solo, it lacks the usual Blackmore flare, like he can't really be bothered with it.
Personally I find it lacks emotion because it just sounds a little by-the-numbers to me. Perhaps it's because I know Ritchie never liked the song and I've ended up thinking I can hear that in his playing.
I normally love Rtichie's slow solos, but that one just doesn't really go anywhere, sort of like a basic first draft that he never perfected.
Steve's has a few too many notes, but I find that a lot with Steve's interpritations of Ritchie's solos. Either he, or other s in the band seem to have decided that he should play all Ritchie's solos in his own style, which works fine on some of them and on others his style isn't very apropriate. However Steve does sound a little more 'into' the solo than Ritchie did.
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8/3/2007, 20:44
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