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Strabo1 Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 24
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Re: The Signature Strat


DrJ -

(sorry for delay in reply, just back from holis..)

The Rainbow fan club in America even ran a competition soliciting answers to this question in about 1980-1 or so, with Roger Glover throwing out teasers in interviews ("I've only just worked out what it's for" etc).

The answer? Typically - the strap button was put there for the sole reason to make people wonder why it was there. Pure Ritchie..
31/8/2004, 10:25 Link to this post Send Email to Strabo1   Send PM to Strabo1
 
frascati Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2004
Posts: 6
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Re: The Signature Strat


Few things:

(Great board, by the way)

Ritchie's guitars were set up by my tech (and a damn fine one), Dawk. If you want a Ritchie strat...Dawk can do it...after all he either thought of, or perfected all the things in RB's guitars. From the assymetrical scallops to the tone circuit in the guitar, to the trem mods to keep it in tune, set-in strat locks, pickup experiments, all that stuff.

Dawk did Ritchie's Majors from '75 on as well, and he can help clear up a lot of myths (like the "280 watt Major"). He also is the one who modded and maintained Ritchie's tape deck and has rebuilt it a couple times.

Check out www.dawksound.com or email him at [email protected]

Someone mentioned the strap button on Ritchie's headstock. Ritchie had an eyeball mounted to the headstock for the Straight Between the Eyes tour. It was used as part of the show (laser reflected off of it? something, I forget). You can see pics of this on the Rainbow in San Antonio VHS cover. It broke off. Ritchie and Dawk were looking at Dawks "parts drawer" and Ritchie pointed at what I think is a P-Bass string retainer and said "put that on" as a replacement.

That's how it got there.
6/9/2004, 5:24 Link to this post Send Email to frascati   Send PM to frascati
 
Christos Gatzidis Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2003
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Re: The Signature Strat


Frascati, great post, can you tell us from which year and till when your tech worked with Ritchie?
6/9/2004, 5:29 Link to this post Send Email to Christos Gatzidis   Send PM to Christos Gatzidis
 
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2004
Posts: 6
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Re: The Signature Strat


'75 to early 90's for the most part (not to be confused with Furgie or Cookie, who did more of the go-fer work). Dawk tuned/modded the Majors, did guitar set ups/mods, tuned the speaker cabs, anything in Ritchie's signal chain.

Reader's digest version:

Dawk worked for The Elves (Dio's band) and worked on Glover's bass in '72 when The Elves opened for Purple. Then when Dio formed Rainbow, Dawk did Ritchie's stuff full time. By the early 90's Ritchie was no longer experimenting as much with gear, they "got it right" by then, so Dawk did less work for RB. After the Engl switch, there was less Major maintenence as well. He still fixes the tape deck when it dies, though these days it's pretty worn out and it does not get used for echo much anymore, just a preamp.
6/9/2004, 5:42 Link to this post Send Email to frascati   Send PM to frascati
 
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2003
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Re: The Signature Strat


Agreed about his 90s note, they really did get it right, I love the tone on the S&M and TBRO tours. If you have the time to get round it could you ask your tech a couple of things;

a) what his recommendation for pickups is? I have a Mexican Classic Reissue 70s Strat and would like to change the stock pickups to something more decent (and of course in order to approach the Blackmore sound somewhat)... Would the Quarter Pounders be a better choice?

b) what happend to Ritchie's tone during the 80s (particularly circa 85, an all-time low in that department)?
6/9/2004, 5:47 Link to this post Send Email to Christos Gatzidis   Send PM to Christos Gatzidis
 
frascati Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2004
Posts: 6
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Re: The Signature Strat


Christos,

>Agreed about his 90s note, they really did get it right,

I like S&M too. A lot of the guitar sound for any record is the studio/engineer, but also a new Dawk speaker cab was made which you are hearing around this time as well. Very clear sound. Ritchie described it as "taking a blanket off (his) old cabs". This cab was put behind the white ones and mic'd live.

>b) what happend to Ritchie's tone during the 80s (particularly circa 85, an all-time low in that department)?

LOL, Everyone asks that same question. ok...good thing I type fast, and since this is my first time here, I'll spend a few minutes on this. No one knows 100% for sure, and Ritchie rarely told the truth (300 watt Major B.S. story sound familiar? That's a "Ritchie Red Herring")

This is tricky, as Dawk was not there for the recording of Perfect Strangers. He was working for Ritchie (and others like Manowar, Springsteen, blah blah), but he was not with DP all the time. He designed the rig, but was not there 24/7. Dawk did Ritchie's stage amps which Ritchie *usually* recorded with (4 in total, some were black velour in the '70's and then later they were put into white Marshall 2001 bass amp boxes with vintage faces. RB did not have road cases in the 70's so his stuff was beat). The stage amps were not modded much after the late 70's/very early 80's. Dawk did the extra tube mod, and a "very important component" was replaced in all the amps with a custom made one. Ask Dawk for that detail, I don't know what I should say and should not say. So, even though the amps were pretty much constant, RB sounds different on records. Trebly on Rising, fat on LLRR, a little more treble on Down to Earth and Difficult, fat on Straight...etc... this is due to the amp and cab tweaking at first, but then it's things like pickup and guitars changing a little, Eq'ing at the board, plus I think (personally) by the mid 80's he was a) Eq'ing the sound (either on the amp or at the mixing board) trying to make the sound more modern (like the flanger that pops up in '82-ish - and I'm sure he was hearing Randy Rhoads and other young guns and trying to keep up), b) compensating for hearing loss? Dawk says RB was always asking for more treble.

So, ok, 1985...live you are hearing the OBL (Bill Lawrence) pups for the most part and the Schecters. The OBL's are hot pups, dark and harsh sounding, but they were humbucking which he needed. For recording, probably the Schecters, but those were not wired the way you think they were. I have it on good authority (two different people who were there saying the same thing) that Perfect Strangers (and parts of, if not all of Bent) was Aiwa -> AC30 -> Major (not the white "Dawk" stage Major) but two different black ones, one for New England or wherever they were, one for overdubs in Germany. It would bore everyone to explain that whole mess I'm sure, maybe next time. Ritchie did the AC30 slaving thing back in the early 70's at times as well. There was one in a Marshall box for certain periods as people here on this board seem to know. Ritchie was always messing with his rig, that's why he does not sound the same for long (Made in Japan is the shiznit for me though).

>Would the Quarter Pounders be a better choice?
 
well RB has had a 40 year career. What time frame are you thinking of shooting for? From '68 to '75 (Strat) it was stock pickup assemblies. Then it was Schecter (which get mistaken for 1/4 lb.ers because the 1/4 is a rip off of the Schecter). Also, there were special dips to stop noise, blah blah blah that change the sound. Then it was OBL (Original Bill Lawrence) 250's and 450's? (I can never remember the model #'s of those things). The dual blade Lawrences were humbucking which was great, but they were very hot, thus dark and crumbly sounding as they were hitting the solid state front end of the Aiwa pretty hard. All kinds of pickups were tried to cut stage noise. HS-2's in the early 80's, but those were thrown in a back-up, maybe some SD 1/4 lb.ers made it into some guitars. Ritchie had guitars that were just for testing stuff like this. Then Don Lace did the original Gold Laces and Ritchie loved the single coil type tone curve. I do not like them. The new Lawrence designed Fenders are better to me (Sylarium magnet - how to spell?).

>a) what his recommendation for pickups is?

Well you can email Dawk at [email protected] and ask him! He does this for a living.

My advice?

If you want early Blackmore, he went stock strat into Fuzz Face into a "close to stock" Major (or try a non-master volume Marshall like a 1959 or a 1987, but remember, "the classic RB sound" is the sound of the Ulra Linear design in the Major). You will sound like In Rock. A friend of mine NAILS this sound with that set up. It's scary. At that time, the Majors were only boosted a tad in the tone stack for treble. The cascading thing was later. After that it was the HS booster with the channels jumped I think. Then, it got weird. Marshall did that cascading gain mod (Which Ritchie called "duff sounding") then it was AC30 into Major on top of that, then the HiFli was all over Burn (and maybe Rat Bat Blue), then the Aiwa. Then the Dawk mods. I heard from one person that neither a Vox or a Major was used on Machine Head. I am in the process of getting the amp that he supposedly used to see for myself. That was a great sound.

1) For early 70's Ritchie, Keep the pickups you have. Honestly. Maybe have the pots and switch upgraded, they're not that great in your guitar, but the pups are ok. People upgrade pups more than they should. If you must upgrade, Fender makes the '69's which are a tad hot and priced well (and Aby Ybarra oversees the production). If you have the cash, Lindy Fralin Vintage Hots, Van Zandt 70's, or the Peter Florence/Voodoo 70's. I use Joe Bardens which are quiet but are very low output and sound close to a single coil (I do not sound like RB though). For later 70'/80's sounds, go 1/4 Pounders, but Dawk has to wire it or it will sound like crap (the way the Japanese RB strat is wired is wrong).

2) get the tone circuit from Dawk.

3) ask him to build the "Aiwa preamp" for you. I'm sure that's possible.

4) Crank a non-MV Marshall. It's best to go into a Major and crank it! Live, RB's amps were on "8".

-J
6/9/2004, 8:28 Link to this post Send Email to frascati   Send PM to frascati
 
Christos Gatzidis Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 2517
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Re: The Signature Strat


quote:

frascati wrote:

Christos,

>Agreed about his 90s note, they really did get it right,

I like S&M too. A lot of the guitar sound for any record is the studio/engineer, but also a new Dawk speaker cab was made which you are hearing around this time as well. Very clear sound. Ritchie described it as "taking a blanket off (his) old cabs". This cab was put behind the white ones and mic'd live.

>b) what happend to Ritchie's tone during the 80s (particularly circa 85, an all-time low in that department)?

LOL, Everyone asks that same question. ok...good thing I type fast, and since this is my first time here, I'll spend a few minutes on this. No one knows 100% for sure, and Ritchie rarely told the truth (300 watt Major B.S. story sound familiar? That's a "Ritchie Red Herring")

This is tricky, as Dawk was not there for the recording of Perfect Strangers. He was working for Ritchie (and others like Manowar, Springsteen, blah blah), but he was not with DP all the time. He designed the rig, but was not there 24/7. Dawk did Ritchie's stage amps which Ritchie *usually* recorded with (4 in total, some were black velour in the '70's and then later they were put into white Marshall 2001 bass amp boxes with vintage faces. RB did not have road cases in the 70's so his stuff was beat). The stage amps were not modded much after the late 70's/very early 80's. Dawk did the extra tube mod, and a "very important component" was replaced in all the amps with a custom made one. Ask Dawk for that detail, I don't know what I should say and should not say. So, even though the amps were pretty much constant, RB sounds different on records. Trebly on Rising, fat on LLRR, a little more treble on Down to Earth and Difficult, fat on Straight...etc... this is due to the amp and cab tweaking at first, but then it's things like pickup and guitars changing a little, Eq'ing at the board, plus I think (personally) by the mid 80's he was a) Eq'ing the sound (either on the amp or at the mixing board) trying to make the sound more modern (like the flanger that pops up in '82-ish - and I'm sure he was hearing Randy Rhoads and other young guns and trying to keep up), b) compensating for hearing loss? Dawk says RB was always asking for more treble.

So, ok, 1985...live you are hearing the OBL (Bill Lawrence) pups for the most part and the Schecters. The OBL's are hot pups, dark and harsh sounding, but they were humbucking which he needed. For recording, probably the Schecters, but those were not wired the way you think they were. I have it on good authority (two different people who were there saying the same thing) that Perfect Strangers (and parts of, if not all of Bent) was Aiwa -> AC30 -> Major (not the white "Dawk" stage Major) but two different black ones, one for New England or wherever they were, one for overdubs in Germany. It would bore everyone to explain that whole mess I'm sure, maybe next time. Ritchie did the AC30 slaving thing back in the early 70's at times as well. There was one in a Marshall box for certain periods as people here on this board seem to know. Ritchie was always messing with his rig, that's why he does not sound the same for long (Made in Japan is the shiznit for me though).

>Would the Quarter Pounders be a better choice?
 
well RB has had a 40 year career. What time frame are you thinking of shooting for? From '68 to '75 (Strat) it was stock pickup assemblies. Then it was Schecter (which get mistaken for 1/4 lb.ers because the 1/4 is a rip off of the Schecter). Also, there were special dips to stop noise, blah blah blah that change the sound. Then it was OBL (Original Bill Lawrence) 250's and 450's? (I can never remember the model #'s of those things). The dual blade Lawrences were humbucking which was great, but they were very hot, thus dark and crumbly sounding as they were hitting the solid state front end of the Aiwa pretty hard. All kinds of pickups were tried to cut stage noise. HS-2's in the early 80's, but those were thrown in a back-up, maybe some SD 1/4 lb.ers made it into some guitars. Ritchie had guitars that were just for testing stuff like this. Then Don Lace did the original Gold Laces and Ritchie loved the single coil type tone curve. I do not like them. The new Lawrence designed Fenders are better to me (Sylarium magnet - how to spell?).

>a) what his recommendation for pickups is?

Well you can email Dawk at [email protected] and ask him! He does this for a living.

My advice?

If you want early Blackmore, he went stock strat into Fuzz Face into a "close to stock" Major (or try a non-master volume Marshall like a 1959 or a 1987, but remember, "the classic RB sound" is the sound of the Ulra Linear design in the Major). You will sound like In Rock. A friend of mine NAILS this sound with that set up. It's scary. At that time, the Majors were only boosted a tad in the tone stack for treble. The cascading thing was later. After that it was the HS booster with the channels jumped I think. Then, it got weird. Marshall did that cascading gain mod (Which Ritchie called "duff sounding") then it was AC30 into Major on top of that, then the HiFli was all over Burn (and maybe Rat Bat Blue), then the Aiwa. Then the Dawk mods. I heard from one person that neither a Vox or a Major was used on Machine Head. I am in the process of getting the amp that he supposedly used to see for myself. That was a great sound.

1) For early 70's Ritchie, Keep the pickups you have. Honestly. Maybe have the pots and switch upgraded, they're not that great in your guitar, but the pups are ok. People upgrade pups more than they should. If you must upgrade, Fender makes the '69's which are a tad hot and priced well (and Aby Ybarra oversees the production). If you have the cash, Lindy Fralin Vintage Hots, Van Zandt 70's, or the Peter Florence/Voodoo 70's. I use Joe Bardens which are quiet but are very low output and sound close to a single coil (I do not sound like RB though). For later 70'/80's sounds, go 1/4 Pounders, but Dawk has to wire it or it will sound like crap (the way the Japanese RB strat is wired is wrong).

2) get the tone circuit from Dawk.

3) ask him to build the "Aiwa preamp" for you. I'm sure that's possible.

4) Crank a non-MV Marshall. It's best to go into a Major and crank it! Live, RB's amps were on "8".

-J



Thanks for the reply mate, by far the most informative on guitar issues I have seen on this forum!
6/9/2004, 15:16 Link to this post Send Email to Christos Gatzidis   Send PM to Christos Gatzidis
 
niji Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 1133
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Re: The Signature Strat


quote:

Christos Gatzidis wrote:

Thanks for the reply mate, by far the most informative on guitar issues I have seen on this forum!



...or in many other forums too for that matter! Fascinating stuff!
6/9/2004, 15:43 Link to this post Send Email to niji   Send PM to niji
 
BlackerThanNight Profile
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Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1600
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Re: The Signature Strat


frascati: What is providing Ritchies apparently endless sustain these days ? Is this another Dawk circuit or some other mods to the tape deck ? It would be interesting to know if Dawk has altered the ENGL combos he uses now or if they are just stock and the clever stuff is elsewhere in the signal chain. Come to that it would be of interest to many here to understand the Ritchie signal chain from guitar backwards.

Your comments so far have been excellent and again confirm that the whole "Signature" gear scene is just compelete make believe, as anyone with half a brain would realise if they thought on it! I've always maintained that the ONLY similarity between Ritchies own guitars and the "signature" guitars is that they are both guitars, your comments bear this out.
6/9/2004, 17:44 Link to this post Send Email to BlackerThanNight   Send PM to BlackerThanNight
 
frascati Profile
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Purple fan

Registered: 09-2004
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Re: The Signature Strat


>What is providing Ritchies apparently endless sustain these days ?

I don't think Dawk did anything to the Engls. I think the sustain is just from using the Aiwa into a modern high gain amp. Even though RB does not use the gain knob much, amps like that (master volume designs with 2-3-4 gain stages using both triodes in each tube) will sing with a little push. Notice it's a trebly sustain, not the authoritative wave of a cranked Major. Majors by comparison are based on an ultra linear hi fi circuit from GEC. They are made to NOT distort. Switching to Engls is prolly enough to do the trick. Maybe using feedback (you can stand in front of an Engl all day and live to tell about it). I also saw that video where he says that he uses a different guitar for recording, the black one with hotter pickups?

RB probably has more gear on stage now than ever. But it's pretty much off the shelf, so Dawk does not set it up. I hear he has a delay because the Aiwa is falling apart. Acoustic amps, Fender electro-acoustics, stuff like that. Can anyone tell me what octaver he was using in the early 80's? This was before the Roland synth. I know he used an Arbiter Octaver on In Rock, maybe it’s the same one? Whatever it is, it tracks well!

>Your comments so far have been excellent

thanks. I find Blackmore and Segovia to be the most expressive guitarists I have heard, so I tracked down things here and there about their gear when I could. This seems like a good place to share what I know. I could talk about Segovia's Fleta or Williams’ Smallman for an hour as well emoticon

>the whole "Signature" gear scene is just compelete make believe,

Sig guitars are corporate agreements, not much more.

RB Japanese model - not a very good guitar in general IMO, and not a correct repro of his 70's model. After a refret, nut replacement, tuner replacement, pots/wiring/switch replacement it's ok.
RB USA set neck - a new idea, a good idea. A good guitar (great sustain and the neck angle is perfect). It's only missing the tone circuit and the scalloping is wrong. Notice that RB's has correct asymmetrical scallops and a 6 screw trem...Leo was right: 6 strings, 6 screws (vibration xnsfer). The RB sig model that Fender wants to sell you is not even the same one they built for RB! Fender would call it a prototype to shut you up. But really, it's financial. Like, they want to move their stock of 2 point bridges or they have more market appeal. That's what they base decisions on. I would guess he had his tone circuit put in there after Fender sent it to him as well. I don't think he uses his sig model as much because he has "No 1" and he's been playing that ever since the re-fretter ruined the old No 1. His necks are epoxied in anyway, so their sort of "set necks" already.

If you're gonna buy a Tom Delonge or "Johny Saggy-pants" model, I'd say you're getting the same thing that they use (if you get a custom shop model of course, Tom does not play a Made in Mexico!). Newer players seem to have few "secrets" and buy off the shelf. 20 years from now, are people going to be arguing about the Papa Roach guy's rig the way they do about Van Halen's rig? No dis intended to PR. Tom Morello is very open about what he does, it's a few cheap pedals and a PCB Marshall 800 or 900. It is innovative (f'ing brilliant), but not always pleasing to the ear.

Guys like RB (Page), they are a different animal and come from a different world. These players were getting good tone *in spite* of the stock gear. Fender was not all over them paying money to take their secrets (referred to in the marketing meetings as "brands") and put them into signature models with 3 "price point" (quality) levels (Korea, Mexico, and Custom Shop) for world-wide distribution through it's network of direct and indirect channel partners while monitoring CD sales and trending metrics to forecast current offering future product viability while also using the same information to target new brands for revenue stream continuation...!!!

Dunlop was not paying RB for a crappily made pedal that says "Ritchie's Purple Zone!" across the front that's made in Taiwan and sounds like ass and is made for 14 year olds with decent allowances. When they did ask him in the 80's he said bugger off because he knows it's all commercial BS that really helps no one. Companies sent him guitars all the time. I heard he smashed some Yamahas and hung them over his fireplace. Hilarious.

He worked to get a unique sound and then trick people into not finding out the truth. He's not going to give his few secrets up to Fender. And Fender, probably would not spring for the extra $ to do it right anyway! That's why you hire a guy like Dawk. Look at what he did for Manowar. It's amazing. Glover and Morse caught a Manowar show and Morse was amazed at the rig. He was pointing at this and that saying "why don't I have one of these????". Glover walked up to Dawk and said something to the effect of: "I knew this was a Dawk rig when I walked in here" referring to the immaculate cabling job and fidelity of sound.

I am an amateur (but serious) player and at this point, all my gear is modded or custom. I realized that I was not going to get my own sound simply by getting the best seller at Guitar Center. Not that I can't use a Crate or something and sound decent. I don't tell people anything about my rig either. It was too hard to come up with it to just tell someone "oh you like it? here's the recipe for free"...not after all the cab, amp and guitar builders who told me "NO" for every idea or problem I had. Once in a while I would find some odd ball who said "oh. cool, I'd love to try to build that/fix that problem". Musicians on this thread probably when through the same thing, maybe more so than I.

Tone comes from the heart, but the gear gets it from your heart into the audience's chest emoticon I don't feel bad sharing what I know about RB now because he's in his what, 40 something-ith year of pro playing? What a career (whole nother topic).
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