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Mr. Black Hat
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

themanwiththeaxe wrote:

quote:

Carramba wrote:

If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler prior to him 'starting' WW2?

4. Lessons are learned from history. We are who we are and where we are because of that. Who knows where or what we would be if history didn't happen the way it did. Who are we to change the course of history? Who knows who would have been saved and who would have been killed if certain events did not happen?




WW2, 6 million Jews, divided Germany...

Did we really need to learn those lessons?

Simon



More important question is:

Did we really learn those lessons?
28/4/2005, 9:43 Link to this post Send Email to mrsnip   Send PM to mrsnip
 
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Right,deep breath, here goes.

First of all I have a problem with the question because it is based on the benefit of 20-20 Hindsight. I know the question assumes you know the outcome, but if you didn’t know, there would have been no reason to shoot him. Hitler was no better or worse than many of the demobilised German soldiers coming away from the Front in 1918-19. There was no particular reason to expect he would become the mouthpiece for the collective forces of his time.

However, despite all my misgivings, I am NOT going to buck the issue of intervening in 20th century history!

Here is my alternative, and hopefully far more benign, approach. First and foremost, in my scenario, no-one gets hurt or shot. All it needs is for someone to be guided along a slightly different route………..


Please stick with it, I hope this ramble is worth it.

To set the scene, I believe the history of the 20th Century will come to be regarded as effectively “The Great 20th Century Conflict”, with two hot phases and a cold phase. Everyone focuses on 1930s Germany and Hitler, and YES I can understand why! But I think there is another country whose history has been highly influential on the 20th century, and is often missed.

Let’s go back to 1900. The 20th Century international political scene opened with “a spot of bother” in the Balkans.

There was a problem with Serbian nationalism.

Now look at the consequences:

a. Gavril Princip, a Serb, member of a nationalist gang, assassinates Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne at Sarajevo.

This act is seen as an attack against the Austro-Hungarian Empire by Serbia.
A-H declares war against Serbia.
During August 1914, the other Great Powers declare war against one another according to their various treaty obligations. [Serbia is an ally of Russia, and so of France, and of GB and….. I get very lost here]


b. Word War I.

c. The Versailles Conference

The treaties split up the Austro-Hungarian Empire, creating various new countries including Yugoslavia from bits and pieces left hanging around. The Allies ensure Germany pays for the War and extract reparations. The German economy goes haywire. Rise of Nazi party and Hitler.

d. World War II

We see industrial-level genocide and the first Atom Bombs used in conflict.

e. Cold War

f. Glasnost and Perestroika

We come towards the end of the 20th Century. Think back to what one of the big international issues was in the 1990s?

Yes, the 20 Century closes with “a serious spot of bother” in the Balkans.

There is a problem with Serbian nationalism.

This time round the Serbian leaders have access to different means. We see ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. Sarajevo is destroyed, and Srebrenica is added to the list of places synonymous with genocide.

However, this time round Serbia is not at the heart of a Great Power conflict. Therefore, the issue is kept confined to the local region. NATO bombs Serbia.

Note: The leaders and participants in Serbia in 1900s and the 1990s are NOT the same people. They are of different generations, but they are the products of the same history and deep-seated cultural beliefs about a Greater Serbia etc. This is a good example of collective forces at work.

Now here is my main point.

There is a superb TV series here in the UK called “Days That Shook The World”. There is an episode about the assassination in Sarajevo. I put this episode in my all time Top 10 List, because it explains what happened on the day that I believe was THE major event in setting up the main events of the 20th century. If there was ever a Chaos Theory Bifurcation Point then this has to be IT!


The simple fact is it appears GP went up the wrong road and found ADFF by accident.

Now what if GP hadn’t gone down that road, and hadn’t found ADFF?

Would he have kept going, gone back?
What if he had failed?
No Word War I?
No Versailles?

Therefore, I think rather than shoot Hitler, I would prefer to be standing on a street corner in Sarajevo, so I can help to direct GP up the wrong road for him, but the right one for everyone else, and out into the Balkans countryside. It must have been beautiful back then during the height of summer 1914. After a nice snooze in the sun, he might have felt differently, and decided to go home without blood on his hands.

OK, GP, or another member of his Black Hand gang, might have tried again another day. The Great Powers would probably have gone to war over something else. They wanted War. I cannot speculate further on what might have happened. However, I feel this is a far gentler way of trying to deal with the issues of the 20th Century, as we have seen them unfold.

Also, we might save all those poor, often forgotten soldiers who were killed World War I.

They would all have lived. Most would have got married and had children. Therefore, there would have been a very different set of people living throughout most of mainland Europe. It would also include all the European Jews.

Adolf Schickelgruber might have stayed in Austria, got married, taken up painting as a hobby, become a life-long vegetarian, gone skiing with his sons every Sunday, and died a happy old man surrounded by 20 odd grandchildren ………..

What did Milan say about “Two roads” ?

GP definitely went up the wrong one that day in Sarajevo………

POS
 emoticon

in a very reflective and profound mood........

Last edited by PoshOldSlapper, 28/4/2005, 12:05
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Carramba Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

MrSnip wrote:

quote:

themanwiththeaxe wrote:

WW2, 6 million Jews, divided Germany...

Did we really need to learn those lessons?

Simon



More important question is:

Did we really learn those lessons?




To go even further than MrSnip's question:

What lesson did we learn then?

28/4/2005, 14:26 Link to this post Send Email to Carramba   Send PM to Carramba
 
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Mr. Black Hat
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

PoshOldSlapper wrote:
Plenty of well-thought things.....!



But I just disagree, with the conclusion, that the wars would have happened anyway. And it´s as simple as this time-machine question.

I go back in time, and remove A.H. I have saved those _individuals_.

Now, somebody else starts WWII, and 60 years after it´s end, 1 person goes back in time and stops it happening, after a heated cyber-debate.

WWII was a very expensive lesson, and I´m afraid we all slept during it, and forgotten about it.

It would all be more easy to go back to Adam and Eve, sterilize both at creation, and neither Bush, Stalin, Hussein nor Hitler would have been born! And the animals and plants would have had a better planet.
28/4/2005, 14:58 Link to this post Send Email to mrsnip   Send PM to mrsnip
 
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

Carramba wrote:

What lesson did we learn then?




Maybe that given the right set of circumstances, man will do some pretty awful things.

Much of the comment here is informed and I agree with what many of the contributers say. I particularly agree that what happened during Hitler's reign came about through a number of coincidences - many economic in nature - and because of a number of [sign in to see URL] just Hitler.

Yet one point has not been mentioned - that of the psychological phenomena known as conformity and compliance. See here -

[sign in to see URL]

The propensity of human kind to do the bidding of others when commanded to do so by a higher authority is paramount in situations such as that of Hitler's reign.

And Germany was ripe for Hitler's stamp of authority. Once in place, it welded the German people more effectively than any panacea could have [sign in to see URL] imposition of discipline and opportunity for psychopathic revenge were two of Hitler's abiding principals.



Last edited by jond, 29/4/2005, 8:07
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

PoshOldSlapper wrote:

a) Right,deep breath, here goes.

b)...the [sign in to see URL] based on the benefit of 20-20 Hindsight... the question assumes you know the outcome, but if you didn’t know, there would have been no reason to shoot him.

c) Hitler was no better or worse than many of the demobilised German soldiers coming away from the Front in 1918-19. There was no particular reason to expect he would become the mouthpiece for the collective forces of his time.

d) Here is my alternative, and hopefully far more benign, approach. First and foremost, in my scenario, no-one gets hurt or shot. All it needs is for someone to be guided along a slightly different route………..

e) Please stick with it, I hope this ramble is worth it.

f) The simple fact is it appears GP went up the wrong road and found ADFF by accident.

g) Now what if GP hadn’t gone down that road, and hadn’t found ADFF?
 Would he have kept going, gone back?
What if he had failed?
No Word War I?
No Versailles?

h) Therefore, I think rather than shoot Hitler, I would prefer to be standing on a street corner in Sarajevo, so I can help to direct GP up the wrong road for him, but the right one for everyone else

i) OK, GP, or another member of his Black Hand gang, might have tried again another day. The Great Powers would probably have gone to war over something else. They wanted War. I cannot speculate further on what might have happened. However, I feel this is a far gentler way of trying to deal with the issues of the 20th Century, as we have seen them unfold. Also, we might save all those poor, often forgotten soldiers who were killed World War I.

j)...in a very reflective and profound mood........






a) Ditto! emoticon

b) Duh! emoticon / emoticon Sorry, I chose not to resist - but that's the only attempt at a cheap laugh I'll go for - I promise! emoticon I know you stated you had a problem with the way the question was asked/framed, and that's understandable.
 Anyway, I think that the question is asked within it's given 'time-frame' (Hitler at age 19, which would set the year at 1907/08, if I'm not mistaken) for a reason. To make every potential answerer give it some thought before answering.

c) He may have been, he may not have [sign in to see URL] think he was, as a reading of his own personal memoirs/political manifesto "Mein Kampf" (dictated by Hitler to the faithful Rudolf Hess while both were in prison in 1923/24(?) and published shortly after) will show. It rather clearly lays out what his feelings were at the end of WWI and rather clearly lays out what his plan was for not only Germany, but by extension the world - if anyone had cared to read it at the time.

d) Yes, it is far more benign and thus perhaps easier to answer. emoticon

e) I did stick with it and it was worth it. emoticon

f) Could [sign in to see URL] there was some rather 'hinky' evidence that indicated there may have been another assassin involved. Sound familiar? emoticon I'll leaborate later or in a different topic if you wish.

g) Who knows? / Who knows? / Who knows? / Possibly not. / Probably not.

h) That I can agree 100% with, POS. emoticon

i) I agree totally with htis, also. emoticon

j) Again, ditto. Well, nearly as reflective + profound as we equines usually get, anyway. emoticon / emoticon

Last edited by MrEd45, 28/4/2005, 20:50


---
" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.

" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
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Rikki Nadir Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


If you had a time machine back then and went forward and saw what would happen in the near future 'if he lived' you would have to say that you had to come back & kill him.

but

If you had a time machine now you could not go back for all the technological, paradoxical reasons etc..

But also

If you had a time machine back then and went forward and saw what the world was like today you might conclude on balance that the mind blowing technology,medical advances etc. (compared to then) means you should leave well alone
28/4/2005, 23:02 Link to this post Send Email to Rikki Nadir   Send PM to Rikki Nadir
 
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

Rikki Nadir wrote:
If you had a time machine back then and went forward and saw what the world was like today you might conclude on balance that the mind blowing technology,medical advances etc. (compared to then) means you should leave well alone



Good point. And the Second WW may well have act as a springboard for much of the technical advances to come. But with medical science striving to keep people alive longer, aren't there going to be too many of us caught up in consumerism for too long?

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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Ack! Work is driving me crazy! I would like to be more engaged in this topic, but, time is limited.
Many interesting points here from Ed, Jon, Posh, and everyone else.

My main point from my question is that I don't think mankind has learned much from WW2 or for that matter from its history in general. Things happen, and from chaos we progress (or just move on). So kill Hitler, and what have you gained? Have you saved lives? I'm not sure. The two main horrors from Hitler are considered to be WW2 and the death camps.

Well, it's pure Disney to think that WW2 would not have happened without Hitler. Like Posh mentioned about GP and the whole spark of WW1, if you want to go there, kill Princip and maybe WW1 would not have happened, hence no WW2. Hell, Hitler may have stuck to painting. Of course, WW1 was going to happen anyway. In fact, it didn't really happen because Archduke Ferdinand was shot. It was because the Serbs didn't 'cooperate' very well with Autria-Hungary on the pursuing [sign in to see URL] try to believe that!

Similarly to the death camps, mistreatment and killing of Jews was nothing new in Europe. It was there from the early rise of Christianity. To eliminate the centuries of Jewish mistreatment in Europe then, Christianity itself should not have risen. Kill Constantine? St. Paul? Jesus? Nah, people would have found some other reason to pick on a minority group. Hell, it's still happening today! You'd think we would have learned something. No, that's asking too much.

See? We learn nothing. We just like to pick a villain in James Bond fashion, and blame suffering of millions on that one person. That keeps the blood off our hands - or so we think.

Sorry, went off rambling a bit here. Ah, what the hell. Let's go back in time and shoot Hitler. That guy had issues.
29/4/2005, 15:42 Link to this post Send Email to Carramba   Send PM to Carramba
 
Rezi Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Let's not forget that as a 20th century mass murdering, Soviet Union's Gulag preceded the Nazis chronologically and actually. The difference is that Stalin murdered anyone, while Hitler had a logic, dreadful as it was (Jews, communists, homosexuals, handicapped people). But still the Nazis had observed the Russian procedures and so followed their lead.

29/4/2005, 16:15 Link to this post Send Email to Rezi   Send PM to Rezi
 


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