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Carramba Profile
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Registered: 09-2003
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The Hitler Time Machine Question


... as brought up in the Purple Sections thread, although I can't find it anymore. If it was deleted due to a heated debate, then this one may be as well - no problem. Still worth a shot even though it is a bit of a cliche question.

If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler prior to him 'starting' WW2?

I liked the banter on this one from before.

I say NO, I wouldn't. Rezi had the best synopsis of it earlier (again, can't find the thread).

Why not? Many reasons:

1. No one man started WW2. Hitler's rise, prejudice, militrarism, were all symptoms of greater issues. Kill Hitler, and WW2 would have happened anyway.... maybe slightly differently, but not much.

2. Death camps. Similar to first answer. In addition, there were other members of Hitler's party that architected this whole thing. Killing Hitler would have prevented nothing.

3. Why stop at Hitler then? Kill Stalin, Czar Nicholas (who was no saint...oh wait, they did kill him), Talaat Basha, Pol Pot, Alexander, Napoleon, Cortes, Columbus (many Indians wouldn't mind), etc...

4. Lessons are learned from history. We are who we are and where we are because of that. Who knows where or what we would be if history didn't happen the way it did. Who are we to change the course of history? Who knows who would have been saved and who would have been killed if certain events did not happen?
27/4/2005, 16:47 Link to this post Send Email to Carramba   Send PM to Carramba
 
Milan Fahrnholz Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Fully agree.

About 3), doing all that would be like bombing civilisation back into the stone age.
27/4/2005, 17:29 Link to this post  
 
Milan Fahrnholz Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


And the thread in question is here: http://com3.runboard.com/bdeeppurplefanforum.fmainchat.t2010|offset=20#post29
27/4/2005, 17:30 Link to this post  
 
PoshOldSlapper Profile
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posticon Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Thanks Milan
Right, now I get it.

I was really getting into the Hitler stuff under the Cardinal Ratzinger/New Pope thread
in response to a question raised by MrEd about Nazism.

Then the debate dried up, leaving me thinking "Ho Hum, shame, never mind!"

However, I am pleased to see it DID continue.

Trouble is I would never have guessed where just by the title of the thread. Or should I?

Hey, this is the Deep Purple Fan Forum, isn't it?

And it all continued under a thread with the simple title of "Blackmore"!emoticon

POS
emoticon
27/4/2005, 17:56 Link to this post Send PM to PoshOldSlapper
 
PoshOldSlapper Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Cheap jibes aside, this is actually a subject I have a serious interest in.

But first my compliments to Carramba on a nice start to the opening post considering the context!

quote:

Carramba wrote:

Still
worth a shot (??!! POS emoticon) even though it is a bit of a cliche question.




The question:

If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler prior to him 'starting' WW2?

quote:

Carramba wrote:

1. No one man started WW2. Hitler's rise, prejudice, militrarism, were all symptoms of greater issues. Kill Hitler, and WW2 would have happened anyway.... maybe slightly differently, but not much.



I agree 100% with this, and explained as much under the Pope thread.

The Nazis were the outcome of so many forces unleashed around the turn of the 20th century, culminating initially with WWI, and then aided by the enforcement of reparations on Post WWI Germany, which led on to WWII.

 Hitler was the mouthpiece. The collective forces were so strong, someone would have filled his place.

But I would add one extra qualification.

What if the Nazis had been led by someone BETTER than Hitler, and therefore WORSE for everyone else?

For example, someone with the strategic brain of a Rommel? The outcome might have been very different for us all. Particularly on this side of the Channel.

quote:

Carramba wrote:

2. Death camps. Similar to first answer. In addition, there were other members of Hitler's party that architected this whole thing. Killing Hitler would have prevented nothing.



Again agree 100%.
I would also like to explain that I do not believe the Holocaust was unique, and why.

One of my big beefs is the lack of understanding in Western Europe of anything to do with the East's history.

Two points:
a) A word commonly used to describe a massacre of civilians is "pogrom".
It is a Russian word and is usually used in the context of massacres of Jews.

Murderous anti-semitism has been around for "ever".

b) If you believe the Holocaust is unique do some reading up on the Chelmenicki pogroms. Chelmenicki was a Cossack who it is estimated killed around 100,000 Jews in 1648.

When you think of the significantly smaller population back in those days, the fact that people were more spread out in the countryside, not concentrated in cities like today: that is a lot of people.

What is different about the Holocaust is the fact that 20th century industrialisation permitted access to territories, transportstion and techniques.

I always keep in mind that in Rwanda the Interahanwe used only machetes.

They used the media to stir up hatred, tricked people to isolate them in churches and then just went in and got on with the killing.

You just need the will and the opportunity.


And at the moment you still have the advantage because most normal people do not believe that when a potentially murderous and genocidal regime says it is going to commit genocide against, very often, an ethnic group within a country's boundaries, it actually means exactly what it says.

This very pertinant lesson from history has still to be learnt by the likes of the UN, American Presidents etc.......

But enough from me.
POS

in very solemn and sombre mood


Last edited by PoshOldSlapper, 27/4/2005, 18:51
27/4/2005, 18:36 Link to this post Send PM to PoshOldSlapper
 
MrEd45 Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

Carramba wrote:

a) If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler prior to him 'starting' WW2?

b) I liked the banter on this one from before.

c) No one man started WW2. Hitler's rise, prejudice, militrarism, were all symptoms of greater issues.

d) Kill Hitler, and WW2 would have happened anyway.... maybe slightly differently, but not much.

e) Death camps. Similar to first answer. In addition, there were other members of Hitler's party that architected this whole thing. Killing Hitler would have prevented nothing.

f) Why stop at Hitler then?

g) Kill Stalin, Czar Nicholas (who was no saint...oh wait, they did kill him), Talaat Basha, Pol Pot, Alexander, Napoleon, Cortes, Columbus (many Indians wouldn't mind), etc...

h) Lessons are learned from history.

i)We are who we are and where we are because of that.

j) Who knows where or what we would be if history didn't happen the way it did. Who are we to change the course of history? Who knows who would have been saved and who would have been killed if certain events did not happen?







a) Yes - unhesitatingly.

b) Me too. emoticon

c) True enough regarding the 'one man' side of things. BUT the fact is we DO know what Hitler's role was and anyone with that knowledge who had the opportunity to prevent it and would choose not to prevent it is...lacking an essential 'something', in my book.

d + e) Assumptions - and highly cynical ones, in my view. I will admit that I'm inclined to believe that humans' capacity for inhumanity to fellow humans probably wouldn't be abated by the prenaturity of Hitler's death. Still, we KNOW what happened and to choose not to at least try + prevent it...aw hell, just re-read the last sentence in my answer c).

f) I agree. Why?

g) Why not?

h) Sometimes...not often enough, it seems. emoticon

i) Agreed.

j) No one really. BUT we DO know what we can at least try to prevent by killing the 19 year old Hitler...aw hell, refer to the last sentence in c) of my post above. emoticon

---
" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.

" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
27/4/2005, 21:40 Link to this post Send Email to MrEd45   Send PM to MrEd45 Blog
 
Beese Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


I couldn't go back in time and kill Hitler!

My grandparents would never have met if it weren't for WW2 and therefor if I killed Hitler then I wouldn't exsist meaning I couldn't be alive to kill Hitler (and so forth), it would be a temperal paradox! emoticon emoticon

Also if WW2 had not have happened it's quite probable that things would have got out of hand between America and The Soviet Empire leading to a full scale nuclear war, it's never good to even consider changing history as the silghtest thing could change everything.

I got into a heated debate with an RE teacher once for saying wouldn't stop Hitler if I could go back in time. She thought I was being evil, but I ended up thwarting her with the temperal theory and spent the rest of an hour long lesson debating temperal physics, which was nice...
28/4/2005, 0:52 Link to this post Send Email to Beese   Send PM to Beese
 
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

Beese wrote:

a) I couldn't go back in time and kill Hitler!

b) My grandparents would never have met if it weren't for WW2 and therefor if I killed Hitler then I wouldn't exsist meaning I couldn't be alive to kill Hitler (and so forth), it would be a temperal paradox! emoticon emoticon






a) The equestion is "If you could go back in time. emoticon
 So, if you mean you would choose not to go and kill Hitler if you could, that I can understand.

b) You have absolutely no possible way of knowing that other circumstances wouldn't've come into play if WWII hadn't happened - and your grandparents would meet anyway.
 I think that if it was possible to travel back in time and one did so and did kill, for example, their own grandfather - their existence as a living entity wouldn't be affected. The fact remains that you DO exist and you'd continue to exist. Just the various circumstances of your life - your name, your parents, your birthdate, your siblings/other relatives, friends, coworkers, etc.,etc. may not have any idea who you were - if they themselves weren't affected. You yourself would continue to exist even when you returned to what we'll call 'your present'. The overall 'type' of world that would greet you upon your return from the past you've altered could - and probably would be different fronm the way it was before you went into the past and altered the course of 'history', as you knnew it. Whether those changes would be overall positive or negative is where the 'roll of the dice' is.
 I guess I'm an optimist when it comes to this sort of 'theory' discussion. emoticon
 I believe you're all aware that old Albert E. himself said that time travel was, in fact, possible - one just needs to go fast enough to do it...I think his 'disclaimer' was that one would only be able to travel to the future, though.

Last edited by MrEd45, 28/4/2005, 1:23


---
" Those who can - do. Those who can't do - teach. Those who can't do or teach - administrate."
- Anon.

" One that will not reason is a bigot. One that cannot reason is an ignoramus. One that dares not reason is a slave." - Anon
28/4/2005, 1:20 Link to this post Send Email to MrEd45   Send PM to MrEd45 Blog
 
Rezi Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


Good post, Posh. Like you said, Jews have been robbed and murdered through the history. Of course, to the Nazi regime, the grounds were 'race', but their property didn't exactly harm either.

In Russia and elsewhere the pogroms were started in bad times, such as cold years when frost wiped away the crops. So, "these devilish people used their black magic, so feel free to go and pillage".

In Poland in the 1930s the goverment was planning to ship all Jews (and there were quite a few...) to Madagaskar. Hitler's regime knew this and they were mapping the possibility to do so, but the war made it impossible.

All Jews were expelled from Spain in 14th or 15th century... the list goes on and on.

Returning to Hitler: did you know that Henry Ford was a fan of his? But unlike Ford, Hitler wasn't efficient at all, especially when the war started. He wasn't the brilliant, bold war commander either, which is a claim still made by many popular histories. At the other end, the popular process of stripping the German army of all military pride continues, especially as the V-Day gets closer. We'll see a lot of documentaries on Normandy and we get to admire the Allied bravery. What is always left out is that military historians admire just how amazingly well the Germans fought against such a devastatingly superior force.
28/4/2005, 8:06 Link to this post Send Email to Rezi   Send PM to Rezi
 
themanwiththeaxe Profile
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Re: The Hitler Time Machine Question


quote:

Carramba wrote:

If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler prior to him 'starting' WW2?

4. Lessons are learned from history. We are who we are and where we are because of that. Who knows where or what we would be if history didn't happen the way it did. Who are we to change the course of history? Who knows who would have been saved and who would have been killed if certain events did not happen?




WW2, 6 million Jews, divided Germany...

Did we really need to learn those lessons?

Simon
28/4/2005, 8:40 Link to this post Send Email to themanwiththeaxe   Send PM to themanwiththeaxe
 


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